Selling Personal Collections

[Ed Storey]

I missed the key post in yesterday's thread on the selling of collections and since I am willing to 'stir the pot' and continue what seems to be a contentious topic let me weigh in and state that the owner of a collection, large or small can do whatever with it; and they have no obligation to donate or sell the collection to a museum.

Did I miss anything?

[rob love]

No Ed, I don't believe you have missed anything. And as far as I am concerned, the cultural properties act is just a way to save the government money. If it is privately owned, and the government of Canada believes it is culturally important, then they have to pay the market price to acquire it.

Don't get me wrong, I love museums. Heck, I spend 8 hours a day at one.

[maple_leaf_eh]

So let me ask Ed and Rob, what is your opinion on Governments seizing a serving or retired members' awards?

Every so often an Order of Canada is yanked back, and recently two disgraced CF members were stripped of their orders and awards. So when does a medal no longer belong to the individual or family? What is to stop that precedent from being applied contingent on the recipients' 'lifetime or good behaviour'?

[Dean (Ajax)]

I just want to state that the collection that is up for sale was bought over the past 30 years by Phil who lives in Normandy, he was going to set up a Private Museum with a couple of other collectors, but as I said, due to some problems with local officials and permits, it did not happen.

So the chance of a Canadian Museum in Normandy, is now gone.

When that juno centre opened, he had some of it on display..however he and the Woman that runs the centre never really got along.

Phil stayed at my place the 2 times he came over to collect, and he was with me at one of the Acton shows 3 years ago.

Dean O

[Robert Bergeron]

Gents, Ed and Rob,

I was kind of wondering if my posts were ever read. I know now that they are.

Upon further tought and after reading your posts , my opinion is that disposing of one's collection of Canadian war artefacts is a personal and individual matter.

Medals and awards are privileges awarded by and for Her Majesty.

In the strict and legal sense, they belong to Her Majesty , as any title , rank or appointment.

I have donated 12 fully dressed and equiped and armed mannequins representing 20th century canadian soldiers of different periods to the local Legion Museum. One of my friends ( André ) hase donated up to 12 fully operational CMP trucks and armored vehicules to the Canadian War Museum and another ( Renald ) his whole Ross rifle collection. It was the most complete collection in Canada. My ongoing project is to donate a working MK 2 Carrier to the same Museum as a center showpiece . The only thing i ask in return is that my name and rank be handpainted on the driver's side armour in 1/2 inch letters. That would be more than M. André Gibeau had from the War Museum. When he asked that his donations be named they refused because it was not initially in the donation conditions. A shame.

Without such donations our Museums would be without important artefacts for future generations.

Then there is the matter of pay scale. I am a specialist officer and the above mentioned friends are in the same pay scale category in the civilian world , so it is more easy for us to donate . But still , i am of the opinion that it should be encouraged.

As far as stripping a member of his awards and medals goes , well , it is up to Her Majesty to decide and yank back what she has given. A dishonorable discharge is what it is : Dishonorable. If you commit murder ( Ex Col Russel Williams ) Her Majesty can yank back without a second tought what she as awarded you but only if you commited the offense while you were still serving. It is my opinion that if the offense was comitted later in your life , say after retirement then you should be left alone and most are .

As for the Order of Canada Terry, it is a civilian award and other rules and traditions apply. Lord of the Rings Black got his Order of Canada yanked and that was a political decision. Same when Chrétien refused his Lordship and he pursued and renounced his canadian citizenship.He then wanted it back to serve his sentence for fraud in a more comfortable and cozy canadian prison and a more leniant , better balanced Canadian criminal justice system.

One can't have it all. Have your cake and eat it. We must serve Her Majesty for Canada with honour and dignity for all of our lives or else relinguish our privileges.

These are opinions and please if we are to debate please be considerate and polite fellows. I am not looking for controversy.

Thanks.

Robert

[Ed Storey]

I must confess that my knowledge of honours and awards is very limited. I would be curious to know how many awards were seized in the time period from the 1960s through to the 1980s. Is the government more likely to seize these awards now, then in the past?

Also, what about disgraced politicians and senators; especially those convicted of a crime? Many of them were given awards simply because they held an elected or appointed position, upon conviction of a crime, are their awards seized?

[Robert Bergeron]

Ed,

You have a good point.

I am far less knowledgeable about awards and medals awarded to civilians but if the Order of Canada is an example than i must say that they do .

Disgraced politicians and private citizens are stripped of the Order of Canada regularly.

I do not know about the commemorative Jubilee and Confederation medals . They are awarded in quite large numbers and i do not think the awards comittee in the Governor General's office keep track on the behavior of the receipients of those '' medals '' or commemorative coins.

I have received a few of those commemorative ''medals '' and wear them proudly on my uniform but i do not make much of them ,they are so common and not strickly military.

There is one Veteran Affairs minister ( Fantino ) that flaunted them and the Veterans that dealt with him were not impressed at all.

That opens up the whole debate about medals and who should be allowed to wear them. Left-right of breast. Descendant of receipient or family member.

Ther debate is in full swing at my local Branch of the Legion. Civilian members of the Branch want to show '' their '' family member's medals and wear them .It is beginning to look like a pissing contest . There is always a civilian who can show a larger set than our retired military members of the Cold War if he wears his uncle's WW2 rack.

That is another can of worms.. and i do not seek controversy just remebrance for those who served and sacrificed everything .

Robert

[Ed Storey]

As I stated earlier, if a person wants to donate to a museum, then that is their prerogative. Although I have to ask, why?

Is a person really helping a museum by donated material to the institution? A museum should, in my opinion, have a collection policy that not only takes into consideration current historical events, but looks towards the future. If a museum is deficient in a piece of historical equipment then that item should be identified as being key to the collection and an effort made to obtain it by the museum. Having collectors donate items to a museum that they think the museum needs not only influences the collection process; but also reinforces to the museum that a realistic collection policy is not required as there are a group of well meaning individuals willing to donate material to build the collection.

As well, a museum is suppose to be a centre of historical excellence, emphasis on suppose to. If you have collectors donating items that are to be centre showpieces, then how do you control the quality of restoration and markings? As you stated, for the Mk II Carrier, you are requesting that your name and rank be hand-painted on the side armour; markings that are not correct for the vehicle.

Okay, so you donate your fully functioning, suitably marked centre showpiece; what happens if in ten, twenty or fifty years from now the museum decides (because they own it) that the carrier would make a great permanent outdoor display. So much for the donation and your restoration work.

My point is, let the museum staff do the work that they were hired to do, which is to effectively manage a collection in a manner in which they do not have to rely on collectors to do that work for them.

[Ed Storey]

Four have been stripped of the Order of Canada since its inception in 1967 and that was only in this century.

David Ahenakew, one of those who was removed from the Order was ex-military, was he stripped of his military decorations as well?

I have to wonder, did a single WWI, WWII or Korea Veteran ever got in trouble or was ever stripped of his awards?

[Dean (Ajax)]

I have donated to a few Museums myself, the Air Museum in Ottawa is restoring a Beaufighter, I had some of the parts they needed in my basement..I gave it to them and recieved a great private tour..and can go back for the same..as I had many of the same rare spares I gave them a few more, and told them they could trade or sell the extras to get other parts they needed. I have also donated to the base Borden Museum and some of the things I gave them are now on display, I asked them NOT to put a brass plaque up with my name on it.
I have also donated to several small "local" museums to help them improve their displays... I gave the QOR Museum a Named Medal to a Fellow that landed on D-Day...
I have never asked for a tax credit as I donate for my own reasons..some say I am a fool... all the power to them as it is my choice and I strongly believe in saving history... Just My way..

Just an after thought, Ed I know you knew Phillippe, I saw photos of you with him in Normandy..I am sure you saw some of the collection mentioned that started all of this.. Why have you not mentioned that??

Just My Thoughts

Dean O

[rob love]

Robert: As I mentioned in the thread that started all this, I believe a man's property is his to do with as he wishes. And for sure, donation to a museum is a very noble thing to do, but up to the owner. Applying peer pressure or trying to ID it as "cultural property" doesn't sit well in my books.

I have given a number of things over the years to museums, some for receipts and some not. Perhaps one day when my estate needs settling the wife may decide that is the easy way and do the same, but it will be her prerogative. I have indicated to her that if she does her homework, some items that weigh a ton are nearly worthless, while other items you can fit in the palm of your hand can fetch 5 grand. I am not quite ready to list those all out to her though, so she will have to figure it out herself some day. If she doesn't, then some other collector will be very happy.

If she takes the museum route, then I suspect they will find their way into a triwall somewhere and some may never see the light of day again. But that will be her perogotive.

[Robert Bergeron]

Gents,

Remember let's keep this debate civil , respectfull and friendly please... or i will leave the room ! Hahaha .

Ed, to be honest i am the volontary , non paid curator of the contemporary collection of the Saint- Georges Q.c. Legion Museum so i am the one deciding what goes inside.When i pass in the next world rejoinging with my past squadron mates and wingmen my successors can do whatever they want with the stuff even exterior monuments with my trucks and Carrier if they want. It may attract more people inside.

We each have our own motives and we must respect each other's choices .

There is great pride and joy in giving. Yes having my name and rank in half inch letters is not period correct but it is my only worldly reward. There is in this case no tax benefit , we are not recognised as a charity. My name and rank is printed in half inch characters on the left side of my airplane also. You can call it ''panache '' or anything else as long as you don't print it here please.

As for stripping veterans of their awards and medals , my knowledge only resides in the contemporary. I know of the former Col Williams and that of a few recent cases. A General officer who befriended a corporal while on operation comes to mind and a Captain ( army ) who was convicted of second degree ( maybe manslaughter ) murder of an wounded ennemy combattant and a few lesser serious cases . Anything short of what Russell Williams did is less serious. Does anyone in this room think we should of left him ( Williams ) with his awards and decorations ?

Respectfully and in all frienship .

Robert

[chris vickery]

Speaking of never seeing the light of day again...
The CWM literally has vaults full of memorabilia that will always be there, locked away sitting in the dark.
The only time items will be removed from storage is when the decision is made to put on a theme inspired exhibit and they go scrounging through storage for a few select pieces.
Furthermore, there is little need for museums to have more than one example of specific pieces. I can just imagine drawers fulls of duplicate medals.
Once in the museums hands, these items rarely make it back into the collectors realm.
Rules and regulations prohibit the exchange, sale or trade of donated materials outside of museums. It is a shame.
I have had the personal opportunity to view many personal collections that make most museums look paltry by comparison. I believe collectors take great care and pride in their collections and give them a better home. Afterall, personal collectors spend their own time and money to make these investments and caring for them is in their own best interests. The same cannot be said for collections owned and managed by paid employees where it is merely a job, funding can be cut or museums closed.

[Ed Storey]

Dean, yes of course I knew Philippe and got to see some of his fantastic collection while visiting him in France. It was a highlight from one of many trips to Europe.

Generally I try to keep my personal accomplishments, acquaintances and military career of out of my posts as I feel that I don't need to list these things in order to make my point or promote discussion.

[Ed Storey]

I think in the case of the larger national museums, items in their care even if not on display will be perhaps better looked after as the museum may have the proper conservation funds and storage.

As for the love or the passion for the items, I have no doubt that collectors have the edge as these are the people forking over their money to obtain the items.

Unfortunately in either hand, a piece can be mismanaged.

[Ed Storey]

In the case of Mr. Williams I would certainly agree that being stripped of his medals was correct, not only due to the magnitude of the crimes he was convicted of committing, but that he was in uniform when he committed them.

What I found particularly interesting was the speed and veracity in which he was expunged of his military career. Commission revoked and destroyed, medals and uniforms destroyed and a notice stating that he will only be referred to as Mister.

I also found it interesting that not one national museum made any effort to save anything from this man - all apparently sat silently as federal institutions fueled by passion and perhaps revenge made a concerted effort to get rid of everything. I am not saying save some of this material as a tribute to the man, but as an example of items owned by a heinous criminal who wore the uniform, especially if in years from now there is an exhibition on notorious Canadian criminals. So much for preserving history.

[rob love]

I think the fact that Williams even got a pension was an aberration. One of the chief principals of leadership is to look out for your men. When he decided to rape and murder a MCpl under his command chain, and had likely used his position of authority to look up her home address or particulars, I believe he negated any and all reward from the crown for his service. A return of contributions was the best he should have got, and even that should have been held pending lawsuits against his estate.

Yes it is a dangerous game to play, as one would wonder where the line would be drawn to relieve a service member from their pensions. But I doubt anyone could argue that, as in this case, it is well beyond any line that could be drawn.

As to having his material saved for inclusion in some notorious Cdn criminal exhibit, I think the selfie photos of him posing in girls underclothing is good enough.

Rant over.

[rob love]

Chris
As collectors, the appeal to us is quality, along with rarity, and in some cases quantity. To the average member of the public, which is 99% of the viewers of most museums, the artifacts must tell, or be part of, a story.

The average person is not interested in the rarity of a beat up LongBranch 1941 no4mk1 over seeing a pristine FTRd British made rifle being displayed. Nor would most care to even know the difference. So the massive walls of webbing that might well entertain us will be lost on the normal tours of people to the museums. So yes, 95% or more of the artifacts will be in storage, but from my experience, they will be well stored and there when the time does come that a suitable theme presents itself to draw them out.

Yes, it would be great to have coliseum sized museums, but the public appetite for the cost just isn't there.

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Speaking of never seeing the light of day again...
The CWM literally has vaults full of memorabilia that will always be there, locked away sitting in the dark.
The only time items will be removed from storage is when the decision is made to put on a theme inspired exhibit and they go scrounging through storage for a few select pieces.
Furthermore, there is little need for museums to have more than one example of specific pieces. I can just imagine drawers fulls of duplicate medals.
Once in the museums hands, these items rarely make it back into the collectors realm.
Rules and regulations prohibit the exchange, sale or trade of donated materials outside of museums. It is a shame.
I have had the personal opportunity to view many personal collections that make most museums look paltry by comparison. I believe collectors take great care and pride in their collections and give them a better home. Afterall, personal collectors spend their own time and money to make these investments and caring for them is in their own best interests. The same cannot be said for collections owned and managed by paid employees where it is merely a job, funding can be cut or museums closed.

[chris vickery]

Rob, agreed.
The is also something to be said for the service provided by ordinary members of the public who we refer to as collectors.
What I mean by this is the level of commitment undertaken by individuals to research, collect, find and finance artifacts which would, could or will be ravaged or lost to time.
Collectively, there are way more individuals collectors who have the time and passion to pursue these things, while most museums have limited budgets, time and research staff.
I support museums but also the individuals. One does not survive without the other.

[Robert Bergeron]

I knew i could trust the members of this forum to debate with respect of each other's opinions.

I certainly agree with Chris, Rob and Ed in most and every aspect. Private collectors are the reason why the better '' stuff '' is preserved .

As for ''Mister '' , the treason of trust is what ''kills '' me . In the Middle Ages , a Knight ( today's equivalent of an officer ) who would breach his oath like ''Mister '' did would have his sword broken , his family crest disposed of in fire and his head cut off with an axe. His body would then be left to rot for crows to feast . No burial in a cathedral or consecrated grounds.

I think what the Chain of Command did with his commission and medals is the modern equivalent. As for the the pension, the anomaly here is that it cannot be forfeited or seized in favour of his victim's families.

I am way out of the subject but i have recurring nightmares of MCpl Comeau recognising her assailiant , torturer and eventual killer. He was her Wing' s CO for God's sake !

Thanks for your comments.



Robert

[maple_leaf_eh]

I can think of a handful of service members who have been released in disgrace and had their CDs recovered - the senior officer and the junior officer mentioned, and an intelligence analyst. Just recently a female Air Nav' got court martialed for wearing unearned awards, which cost her the OMM and other punishments. But what about the other hundreds of service men and women who get into trouble with the law every year? Don't convicted drunk drivers, shoplifters, and assailants also bring disrepute upon the Forces? Shouldn't they have their long service good conduct medals pulled too?

Bob mentioned above that what the Queen gives, she can take away. By that definition, wouldn't medals be an in-their-lifetime temporary loan, with the return spring taking effect upon death?

[Dianaa]

Just to touch on the issue of revoking military medals, the only medal that can't be revoked is the Victoria Cross. While a VC recipient from the second Afghan War (and WWI) Pte. James Collis, was awarded the VC, he later had it forfeited because of bigamy. After a petition to King George V the award was restored after James Collis VC died.

The King proclaimed at the time "No matter the crime committed by anyone on whom the VC has been conferred, the decoration should not be forfeited. Even were a VC recipient to be sentenced to be hanged for murder, he should be allowed to wear his medal on the scaffold.”

[rob love]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

I can think of a handful of service members who have been released in disgrace and had their CDs recovered - the senior officer and the junior officer mentioned, and an intelligence analyst. Just recently a female Air Nav' got court martialed for wearing unearned awards, which cost her the OMM and other punishments. But what about the other hundreds of service men and women who get into trouble with the law every year? Don't convicted drunk drivers, shoplifters, and assailants also bring disrepute upon the Forces? Shouldn't they have their long service good conduct medals pulled too?

Bob mentioned above that what the Queen gives, she can take away. By that definition, wouldn't medals be an in-their-lifetime temporary loan, with the return spring taking effect upon death?

Here is the link to the official answers that you seek. http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-pol...-01/ch-18.page

Section 4 covers forfeitures. As always when reading regulations (and drill manuals), note the difference between shall and may.

Nothing there about the return of any of them upon death.

[Bill Alexander]

Bringing this back to the collection in question, I have downloaded the catalogue. Some lots are questionable, and I would be very careful if considering bidding. The 1 Cdn Par lot 244 is one I would cite as questionable. Note the auctioneer says the insignia is not guaranteed. Many other lots need to be carefully studied.

[Robert Bergeron]

Dianaa,

You are a gem !

What a nice find.

The King can do no wrong !



Robert

[Robert Bergeron]

Rob, thanks that's the right reference concerning forfeitures.Well done.

The King or Queen may take back what she / he has given as a service medal or award.

What military members should remember is the old adage : Don't do the crime if you ( don't want to do the time ) want to keep your medals !

Robert

[Ed Storey]

It looked to me like the thread flowed in the direction that it took.

[Robert Bergeron]

Ah, gosh. OK i' ll stay on.



Robert

[peter simundson]

Robert Please reconsider your decision to leave the Forum.

You are a valued member and your contributions are well considered

and I enjoy reading them. Your posts on vehicles are genuine concerns

that tackle serious issues. Please think about it.

Peter Simundson CD

[Ed Storey]

No, I am not in grade school and neither do I hide behind a pseudonym when I post. So much for your integrity and respect when posting.

What has me baffled is why you are so passionate about the post. As I said previously, it looked to me like it flowed in the direction that it did rather then some person with only four posts to his 'name' coming in and with a fair bit of arrogance try to reroute it.