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  #31  
Old 17-04-19, 21:37
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Irresponsible Spending

Who in their right mind would spend 250K on vehicles sight-unseen? I'd be looking for a new Museum President.
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  #32  
Old 17-04-19, 21:55
James P James P is offline
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More. Rather sad tale really

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar_ca...=2006&as_vis=1
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  #33  
Old 17-04-19, 23:44
Harry Moon Harry Moon is offline
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Default legal fees

wait for the other shoe to drop, in Canada loser pays the defendants legal bills. thats why there are so few comparatively legal cases like this in Canada.
I was associated with a company that sued another and lost, ordered to pay a few hundred thousand, meetings, tighten belt change a few purchases to down the road, we will survive.... then the million dollar legal fees and after bankruprtcy there wasn't a dime left....
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  #34  
Old 18-04-19, 00:00
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Quote:
Who in their right mind would spend 250K on vehicles sight-unseen?
Well said!

By the way.....how did the bids go that high anyway......I mean, there had to be at least one other bidder that was willing to pay top money for these vehicles, right?......otherwise the price would have been much lower???

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  #35  
Old 18-04-19, 02:40
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I started this thread, probably with a little too much guilty joy at others expense, that I regret and I apologize for. All in all it's a shame, I certainly would not go casting aspersions on the ONTARS president. Alan is a smart, successful businessman who has been a real benefit to the museum and the Canadian military vehicle community.

I will admit in my earlier collecting days I made some major mistakes, mostly born from a lack of knowledge, unbridled enthusiasm and misplaced trust. Who of us hasn't at one time or another got little excited and bought a bag of magic beans?

No matter what we are all on the outside looking in and in the end it is a very interesting and sad event, but the reality is I am sure we don't know all the circumstances surrounding the case.

What I am glad to see is this has not seemed to effect the momentum the Ontario Regiment Museum has gained in the last few years. Lessons learned, onward and upward!

John
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  #36  
Old 18-04-19, 05:33
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmcm View Post

....

I will admit in my earlier collecting days I made some major mistakes, mostly born from a lack of knowledge, unbridled enthusiasm and misplaced trust. Who of us hasn't at one time or another got little excited and bought a bag of magic beans?

...
Bean? I got some of those right here! Come on over and let me tell you about them.

And I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments. The museum got a punch in the nose for its excitement. Time to lick their wounds, make a few new plans, and get on with the season. As for the boss named in the decision, I wouldn't be too harsh. A famous hockey player said, you miss 100% of the shots you never take.
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  #37  
Old 27-04-19, 00:13
James P James P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmcm View Post
I started this thread, probably with a little too much guilty joy at others expense, that I regret and I apologize for. All in all it's a shame, I certainly would not go casting aspersions on the ONTARS president. Alan is a smart, successful businessman who has been a real benefit to the museum and the Canadian military vehicle community.

I will admit in my earlier collecting days I made some major mistakes, mostly born from a lack of knowledge, unbridled enthusiasm and misplaced trust. Who of us hasn't at one time or another got little excited and bought a bag of magic beans?

No matter what we are all on the outside looking in and in the end it is a very interesting and sad event, but the reality is I am sure we don't know all the circumstances surrounding the case.

What I am glad to see is this has not seemed to effect the momentum the Ontario Regiment Museum has gained in the last few years. Lessons learned, onward and upward!

John
I tend to agree with what you say John and while the guy may be brilliant, successful and competent in what he does for a living he did make an ill thought out purchase on this one sight unseen. Sadly the plaintiffs should have done the due diligence and had some knowledge of what they where throwing money at. The Victory Memorial Museums collection of vehicles (later Kruse Foundation) had a reputation of being made up and often incomplete so when the guy bought these as is/where is and sight unseen it just shows a breathing taking lack of study, or knowledge, regarding the vehicles purchased. That all said I have to salute the guy for moving the OntR museum so very far forward and giving it a bright future and potential. A costly mistake made for sure and no doubt many lessons learned along the way that will not be repeated .

Last edited by James P; 27-04-19 at 00:47.
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  #38  
Old 27-04-19, 00:55
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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I'm curious what happens now (or has happened?). Does the museum take possession of the vehicles? Do they try and re-sell them? Keep them?
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  #39  
Old 27-04-19, 06:36
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
I'm curious what happens now (or has happened?). Does the museum take possession of the vehicles? Do they try and re-sell them? Keep them?
The pieces were on the floor when I visited a year ago. The guides were polite and clear that the vehicles were not genuine wartime examples. Considering all the other priorities in the hangar, I don't expect that these will get much attention for a while.
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  #40  
Old 11-09-20, 06:41
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Seems some at the museum are still quite sour about this. The museum PR guy quite arrogantly told me how complicated international armour purchases are. He wanted to know how my next purchase went. So I told him how my first one went. This is in now way directed to the hard working volunteer group the museum has.
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  #41  
Old 11-09-20, 11:57
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Quote:
Seems some at the museum are still quite sour about this.
I am sure they are...financially it was a big disaster and I am sure the responses from the classic MV world on their purchases didn't help.

I think your comment on the volunteers at the museum is very well said....I wouldn't be surprised if some volunteers did know about the originality of the vehciles and warned the staff, but were ignored. I know....just speculation, but I have seen this with volunteers at a museum in the past; they were just ignored.
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  #42  
Old 11-09-20, 18:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
I think your comment on the volunteers at the museum is very well said....I wouldn't be surprised if some volunteers did know about the originality of the vehciles and warned the staff, but were ignored. I know....just speculation, but I have seen this with volunteers at a museum in the past; they were just ignored.
Judging by how openly arrogant Tank Museum Guy Jeremy Neal Blowers is that they know best on international armour purchases, it doesn’t surprise me that some of their great volunteers were ignored.
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  #43  
Old 11-09-20, 21:11
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Museums are great and all but personally, I’ve found many a hobbyist to be better informed and more knowledgeable on many fronts. I’ve seen some exceptional restorations that make “museum quality” ones look like crap...
Difference between them and us? We spend our own money, they lobby for theirs.
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  #44  
Old 12-09-20, 00:05
James P James P is offline
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https://scholar.google.ca/scholar_ca...=2006&as_vis=1

Just to refresh memories for background and why due diligence is called for when making a costly purchase. What I for the life of me cannot wrap my head around is after dragging Kruse through the courts complaining about "not original" vehicles they turn around and buy a home made tank and a couple of OT810 painted up as Sd.Kfz.251s.
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  #45  
Old 12-09-20, 01:01
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Fake German Vehicles

Why would a museum want to waste time informing the public about the OT810 , its history and roll in the Cold War when it is more interesting to convert it into a fake German SdKfz 251. After all, it is 'musi-tainment' and not facts which sells admission tickets.
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  #46  
Old 12-09-20, 01:10
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
What I for the life of me cannot wrap my head around is after dragging Kruse through the courts complaining about "not original" vehicles they turn around and buy a home made tank and a couple of OT810 painted up as Sd.Kfz.251s.
Home made tank??? Tell me more....
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  #47  
Old 12-09-20, 01:36
James P James P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
Home made tank??? Tell me more....
Panzer III is reproduction (but a VERY well made reproduction)

StuG III is FV432 based and

Hetzer is a Swiss G13 (but most "Hetzers" today are so no biggie) and OT 810s are well ...............OT 810s.
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  #48  
Old 12-09-20, 10:59
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
Why would a museum want to waste time informing the public about the OT810 , its history and roll in the Cold War when it is more interesting to convert it into a fake German SdKfz 251. After all, it is 'musi-tainment' and not facts which sells admission tickets.
Years ago, on another forum, someone said he had bought an OT 810 and asked for opinions on which (implicitly German) colours would be good to paint it in. I replied along the lines of, “1960s Czechoslovakian green” and was promptly ignored
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  #49  
Old 12-09-20, 12:35
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
Panzer III is reproduction (but a VERY well made reproduction)
If they are good in making reproductions, I hope they turn this Sexton hull into a Sexton GPO one day. But maybe a unarmed armoured vehicle is less sexy than "a tank"? Well then a Sexton 25-pdr SP gun do nicely as well. Plus you can take visitors for a ride, if that's what's its about.
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  #50  
Old 12-09-20, 15:45
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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From the Google docs legal information, "...Duffy won the auctions for both the Opel and the Marder. His winning bids were $41,000 for the Opel and $210,000 for the Marder. ..."

As far as I am aware, Mr Duffy has bought and sold numerous other armoured vehicles. He has been a big proponent of the Ontario Regiment Museum and raised its profile head-and-shoulders above its previous levels. Let's not forget just how much good he's done for the hobby. As I mentioned above when I visited the very impressive collection, I was informed that the two pieces were by then acknowledged as not original.

I've made bad decisions over the years too. I've been disappointed with auction purchases just as much as I've been happily surprised by what arrived. Maybe the MLU lynch mob should pull in its horns and let the OntR Museum have its day in court. A judge will decide whether the items were misrepresented or not. Until then, I think all museums have bigger fish to fry as they try to find revenue in a very changed community sector.
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  #51  
Old 12-09-20, 17:01
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Terry, you’re right. It is hard to comment on someone who is putting his money where his mouth is. I guess the difference for the guy paying for it, is whether you know you’re buying a replica or being led to believe you’re buying a genuine vehicle while in fact you are not.

Then again, the snotty remark towards Jordan is out of line as he clearly has the experience.

Same sort of thing happened in the MLU FB group. Someone started asking questions about the CMP he had just bought. He got constructive comments about the roof hatch being a postwar addition. He then tried pulling rank with some snotty remark about how long he was a vehicle collector and how many prizes he had won. If the guys commenting (including me) could top that. The MLU gang was not impressed and the new guy turned on his heels and moved out.
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  #52  
Old 12-09-20, 19:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh View Post

As far as I am aware, Mr Duffy has bought and sold numerous other armoured vehicles. He has been a big proponent of the Ontario Regiment Museum and raised its profile head-and-shoulders above its previous levels. Let's not forget just how much good he's done for the hobby. As I mentioned above when I visited the very impressive collection, I was informed that the two pieces were by then acknowledged as not original.
Yes he has done, as Executive Director, a lot to help raise the profile of this museum a lot compared to where it had been years ago. That is not disputed.

However, perhaps these purchases are done as a way to get substantial tax receipts from the museum to go towards reducing his personal income tax obligations to CRA. I have no issues with Mr Duffy. From all I have heard is a standup guy.

It’s the corporate attitude of this museum that has shifted and become arrogant and “the only ones in town” when in fact they aren’t. The PR guy Tank Museum Guy/Jeremy Neal Blowers consistently posts half truths on Facebook and in the media about their armour. He arrogantly tried to tell me about the intricacies of importing armour. He must have realized his arrogance because he deleted that comment but not before I had a screen shot it. Mr Blowers has also blocked me from commenting on his Tank Museum Guy page.

It’s a great system that’s been setup with this museum, buy armour, get it written off with tax receipts, have it stored at a museum inside, have 150 volunteers rebuild and keep the maintenance on them and then you get to drive them anytime you want.
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  #53  
Old 12-09-20, 21:33
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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I am jealous! Kudos to Alan Duffy and those well intentioned museum volunteers who stay above the fray. Your positive contributions do not go unnoticed.

Hands down, it is greatest tracked military vehicle show in Canada.

Contrary to current advertising, it is not the only place in Canada for tank and other tracked vehicle rides, for a fee or not. For example, the Niagara military group and their partnership with Parks Canada at the annual ‘Timelines’ event, thanks to RustyLinc, stout yeoman, and volunteers. Also the former SOMM events, thanks to Mr. Bottoms, et al. Looking west, the McMichael benefit event as another example.

The ONTar museum is a wonderful use of private donations of money, equipment and time coupled with Canadian taxpayer dollars to fund the history and heritage of the CAF. All in all, a top notch effort with a few hiccups along the way, perhaps guided by what appears to have been a somewhat insular Corporate culture? The show must go on. Looking forward, learning and building on difficult lessons of the past.

Keep up the good work, to everyone participating in both private and public ventures. Like it or not, we are all in this together.

As an old friend often said: “cheer up, things could be worse...”. Just look at recent Orders in Council. Who and what is next?



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Last edited by Michael R.; 12-09-20 at 21:43.
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  #54  
Old 21-09-20, 20:11
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While I feel for the OntMuseum - the judge had it right - sometimes the words that are missing in a description are as important as the ones that are there....like "original" "WWII battlefield relic" etc.: had those words been used rather than the 'puffery' words ('museum quality,' 'appears to be,' 'great condition,') all would be well with that purchase.
Had there been a single communication where Krause said this is an original vehicle in answer to a question of the same content - Krause would have lost the suit! IF the seller had said 'I don't know' or 'as is' than that must be taken to mean the WORST CASE - not original
This case is the same as the one where someone recently purchase Patton's WC57 Dodge Command Car - not! No good provenance and lots of innuendo that it was ever Patton's; more likely he ever even road in it or that it was on the same continent as Patton!!!!
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  #55  
Old 21-09-20, 21:05
peter simundson peter simundson is offline
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Default Let it go boys!!!

Instead of barking and snapping at Allan Duffy who has singlehandedly turned the Ontario Tank Museum into a World Class display of vehicles and equipment the same people keep taking shots. It was a solid try at introducing foreign vehicles into the herd. If they can't be used for what they are, they would make great background for a diorama. And based on past price performance if they hold on to them for five years regardless of their history they could sell them for 30% more than they paid. AND you can thank Allan Duffy alone for a far sighted vision of what that Museum should look like. That new building is a blessing for anyone who works and toils there. Cheers for Mr. Duffy. And his visions.

My uncle served in the Ontario Tank through WW2. When I asked an ex vet in the Regiment how he did (waiting to hear he was a good soldier) the reply was....he was the best dancer we ever had.

Peter Simundson

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  #56  
Old 22-09-20, 05:07
Harry Moon Harry Moon is offline
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why don't we at least change the title to this thread.
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  #57  
Old 22-09-20, 17:32
James P James P is offline
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Quote:
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why don't we at least change the title to this thread.
Why ? They did just that.
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