3 Aust A/T Regt Vehicle numbers

Shane Lovell · #1 26-02-04, 03:43

Hi Guys

Still looking into Portees. Can anyone tell me what the abreviation CAS stands for? Following are a summary of 3 Aust AT Regt vehicles repainted in Palestine between 21 April 1942 and 30 May 1942. The source of the information is the unit war diary AWM 52: 4/4/3.

L1305132 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4514651 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4519845 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4519867 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4622900 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4622971 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4622981 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623002 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623003 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623039 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623065 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623068 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623092 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623128 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623199 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623206 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623257 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623517 CVT C.60. L CAS
L4623556 CVT C.60. L CAS
Z4520080 FD 15 CWT CAS
Z4710858 DODGE 8 CWT
V12552 FD 1 TON GS
V2697 FD 1 TON GS
V4002 FD 1 TON GS
V4176 FD 1 TON GS
V4216 FD 1 TON GS (LAD)
V4076 FD 15 CWT GS
V4136 FD 15 CWT GS
V4142 FD 15 CWT GS
V565 FD 15 CWT GS
V573 FD 15 CWT GS
V655 FD 15 CWT GS
V97 FD 15 CWT GS
L8171 30 CWT GS
L13594 FD 3 TON
L7181 FD 3 TON
L9224 FD 3 TON
L10442 FD 3 TON MACH LORRY
L1304127 FD 3 TON STORES
L8489 FD 3 TON STORES
L14208 FD 30 CWT W/LORRY
M5018 FD STAFF CAR
M4520101 FD STAFF VAN
L14207 FD W/LORRY
L14215 FD W/LORRY
L716 FD W/LORRY
Z4573920 FDN 1 TON GS
L4574013 FDN 15 CWT
X15358 TRAILER
V18210 CVT 1 TON GS (LAD)
L8489 FD 3 TON STORES (LAD)
V1969 FD 15 CWT GS (LAD)

cheers

Shane

Tony Smith · #2 26-02-04, 04:44

CAS? Dunno!

However, of note is the fact that all the vehicle numbers are British WD numbers, which tends to support a thread by David Hayward that Aust vehicles in the ME were supplied from British stocks, rather than supplied from Australia.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #3 26-02-04, 08:06

I am going to have to do a lot of checking, but these are evidently all BRITISH War Department Census Numbers and has just prven beyond reasonable doubt what we have been saying in the earlier threads. Since I can't find the thread, basically we expounded the theory that the AIF, NZEAF and Indian Army were issued with trucks and cars by the W.O. in Palestine and Egypt and because they remained British-owned, even when shipped off to other theatres, they continued to carry Census Numbers.

I will have to take some time over this but it would appear that the majority have Mid-East theatre allocated Census Numbers. The 2-pdr Anti-tank Portees were to S/M 2029, E.g. known AIF-issued trucks were L 4623008, L 4623053, L 4623061, L 4623452, L 4623541. On rebuild they had 'H' prefixes as 17-pounder tractors. I suggest that the list were either 2-pdr Portees, or the C-GTs to the same contract. The Dodge D8A was also to S/M 2029, and was one of the batch delivered to the Mid-East and then issued to the AIF.

Philliphastings · #4 26-02-04, 10:20

I'm certain I have seen several references to the Australian Forces being issued early production british universal Carriers in theatre - so it stands to reason that softskin support vehicles would also be issued from British stocks.

I seem to recall that the surviving carriers were returned to the British afterwards - but this may also have something to do with the suggestion that they were not too reliable.

Sorry to be vague on the sources - I have been away from the Military Scene tall ship sailing for several years and my reference library is in disarray !

Phill Hastings

Hanno Spoelstra · #5 26-02-04, 10:47

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Since I can't find the thread,

Here's "AIF shipment of vehicles to Mid East '40?".

David_Hayward (RIP) · #6 26-02-04, 11:24

Thanks Hanno...I had thought that if there was anyone who could have found earlier threads, you were the man!

We know that carriers were issued in the Mid-East, as were other vehicles.

Lang · #7 26-02-04, 12:03

I disagree that all the vehicles on the list are British W.O. numbers (see my markings thread). The long numbers on the Blitz are but the shorter numbers are Australian AIF numbers. You can tell from the vehicle types that they are Australian built light vehicles (Cars, Utes etc). The numbers should have been prefixed AIF but often weren't. Don't know if they put the AIF before the British numbers, probably not, as they would have gone right down the side of the vehicle!

Lang

David_Hayward (RIP) · #8 26-02-04, 12:08

L 1305132 CVT C.60. L CAS MID-EAST CENSUS # ..if C60L could be S/M 2019
L4514651 CVT C.60. L CAS to L4623556 CVT C.60. L CAS...suggest that these were 30-cwt 2-pdr Anti-tank Portees to S/M 2029 if the known Census Numbers for Portees is correct!

Z4520080 FD 15 CWT CAS ..possibly S/M 2002, F.15 assembled in Alexandria
Z4710858 DODGE 8 CWT...definitely S/M 2029 Mid-East assembly
V12552 FD 1 TON GS...?
V2697 FD 1 TON GS...?
V4002 FD 1 TON GS...?
V4176 FD 1 TON GS...?
V4216 FD 1 TON GS (LAD)..?
V4076 FD 15 CWT GS..?
V4136 FD 15 CWT GS...?
V4142 FD 15 CWT GS...?
V565 FD 15 CWT GS..?
V573 FD 15 CWT GS...?
V655 FD 15 CWT GS...?
V97 FD 15 CWT GS...?
L8171 30 CWT GS..?
L13594 FD 3 TON..?
L7181 FD 3 TON..?
L9224 FD 3 TON..?
L10442 FD 3 TON MACH LORRY..?
L1304127 FD 3 TON STORES...possibly S/M 2019 or 2037, F60L
L8489 FD 3 TON STORES...?
L14208 FD 30 CWT W/LORRY
M5018 FD STAFF CAR....Ford 01A?
M4520101 FD STAFF VAN....might be C11AS 7-pass wagon
L14207 FD W/LORRY...?
L14215 FD W/LORRY....?
L716 FD W/LORRY..?
Z4573920 FDN 1 TON GS...this number is for a 15-cwt G/S!
L4574013 FDN 15 CWT...15-cwt G/S British Contract V.4433 same as before, presumably a F15
X15358 TRAILER...?
V18210 CVT 1 TON GS (LAD)...?
L8489 FD 3 TON STORES (LAD)...?
V1969 FD 15 CWT GS (LAD)...?

The 3-ton 4 x 2 trucks might be Ford EC098TFS to S/M 2004 if any were shipped off from the UK to Alexandria, or could be locally assembled Egyptian Ford equivalents. I think I have just proven my suggestion as the truck on the left is a NZEF-issued truck, to S/M 2004!!!

I agree that the others are probably AIF serials. On photos it seems that the 'AIF' does not always come out against the camo paint jobs. I have never seen 'AIF' before the British Census Number.
ADDED:

'I found this shot on the NZ Library website'.. it's a C60L # 12 Cab I think to S/M 2019, similar to the AIF truck[s]. The Census Number appears to be L 1304787, and thus part of the same batch as L 1305132!

Lang · #9 26-02-04, 12:17

David,

Our postings crossed.

All those vehicles you can't get a handle on are definitely Australian built 4x2 types (might be a few Marmon-Herrington 4x4 but I haven't looked carefully). Thousands were shipped to the Middle East or direct from Canada on Australian purchase orders and assembled at Alexandria as you say. There are Australian War Memorial photos of the Australian unit there with acres of Chevrolet parts in a huge warehouse.

Lang

David_Hayward (RIP) · #10 26-02-04, 13:52

'NZASC trucks drawing rations at Western Desert railhead from daily train'

Am I right in suggesting that this is a Morris-Commercial? Note the Census Number, which fits in with the V-series AIF trucks listed above.

Tony Smith · #11 26-02-04, 15:47

We all now seem to agree that vehicles that were ordered, purchsed or issued to British War Office and allocated WO census numbers, and were later given, lent or sold to the AIF. These were alongside other vehicles that came over from Australia. We now need to get to the botttom of the "Given, Lent or Sold". (I won't mention pinched, we only did that to the Yanks

).

Of interest is the pic below from the AWM archives. It shows "AIF L 4515098", a number close to those listed by Shane, yet with the AIF prefix as suggested by Lang. By the look of the cargo, this may also be an Arty vehicle, but not A/T, looks more like 25pdr. Could CAS be "Column, Ammunition Supply"?

Mike Kelly · #12 26-02-04, 15:55

HMMMM a few things need to be cleared up here .

Firstly, the Australians used two separate numbering systems

The AMF and AIF were separate entities and they used their own vehicle number systems , AIF vehicles usually were prefixed with AIF .

That pic is of a Fordson WOT2B VAN . It has the fixed side body as opposed to the drop side GS type . In the British army , the Vans used prefix V , these were issued to the RASC , and DID NOT use the Z prefix as used on the other 15cwt GS types . You are getting confused .

In Australian army parlance , light vehicles were called VANS eg. Ford 15 cwt GS Van , was really a utility truck . there were three classes . 12 cwt vans were usually on a sedan chassis , but with a Aust. ute body fitted . Other types were the 1 ton and 15 cwt VAns . These Aust , Van- utes were also issued with V numbers , so its tricky , dont get mixed up .

The V numbers Shane posted above ARE NOT British numbers , some of them only have 3 digits, these are Aust. pattern Vans based on civilian models . eg. 1939-41 Ford utes assembled at Ford Geelong .

Mike

Mike Kelly · #13 26-02-04, 16:18

Here is a AWM pic of a 1939 Ford in the ME . Its number is
AIF V 213 . This vehicle is a 12 Cwt Van , built on the Ford light commercial chassis .

Mike

Tony Smith · #14 26-02-04, 16:47

Mike Cecil's profiles on Field Artillery gives Census numbers for AUSTRALIAN BUILT LP3 and LP3a Gun tractors. These vehicles were Aussie built and never sent or sold to Britain, yet they have H class census numbers in dribs and drabs! If Australia was building a new class of vehicle, why would'nt the numbers be sequential from 001. Could the AIF be using WO census numbers allocated from Britain? The gaps in the numbering could be vacant numbers in the British vehicle fleet, issued in blocks by the War Office for use by the AIF.
If that was the case, the presence of a WO census number on an AIF vehicle might have no relationship to wether that vehicle was ever a part of British stocks, although some were obviously ex-British.

Mike Kelly · #15 26-02-04, 17:13

Your theory falls to pieces because of the 3 digit numbers

In the British system , 3 digit numbers would have been allocated many years back , or never at all I have never seen a British H 3 digit number on a gun tractor of British origin .

One of Shane's V numbers has only 2 digits ! When did the British ever issue 2 digit or 3 digit census numbers ! Looks like they are purely Australian to me .

Look at the census number on that Fordson WOT2B V 203731
and the Aust. number V 97 FORD 15 cwt . There is a 200,000 difference in sequence !

Mike

David_Hayward (RIP) · #16 26-02-04, 18:51

I must get some pix of Ford WO trucks! Of course V 203731 is a Ford W0T2B! I is a idiot for not finding the Census Number!

V 203677 to V 204676 Contract V.3735 'Van 15 cwt. 4x2 GS'!

So. it's a W.O. Census Number on a W.O.-owned truck, issued and used by the NZASC element of the NZEF.

The L 4515098 truck appears to have a Middle East-allocated W.O. Census Number, and therefore was owned by the War Office/Ministry of Supply and issued to the AIF.

So far we know that the AIF, NZEF and Indian Army were all issued with British-owned vehicles. It would appear that the retention of W.O. numbers only applied at most to Mid-East, Malaya, India, Singapore, China, Malta, Gibraltar, Ceylon, N. Africa, E. Africa, Egypt, Bermuda, Jamaica, Persia and Iraq. Note no Far East or Australia allocations. This means that despite what may have been conjected, Ministry of Supply Demands [Contracts] for deliveries to Australia and New Zealand were not allocated W.O. Census Numbers. Local numbers would appear to have been applied to all British purchases as well as Australian and NZ deliveries.

I have yet to find any British papers confirming what the arrangements were about the financial arrangements were about these British-owned vehicles that we have been discussing, but it may have been the subject of a 'we'll sort it all out at the end of the war' arrangement as happened with the US and Canadian Governments. Of course using W.O. numbers on British trucks must have made the supply and fitment of spare parts much easier since there would have been just a need to quote the Census Number....I assume here that British trucks had British parts supplied no matter who was in de facto ownership!

David_Hayward (RIP) · #17 26-02-04, 18:56

..out that despite the thought to the contrary W.O. Census # 1 to 5208 and effectively up to # 15000 were indeed used in theory for 'Impressed' vehicles with some batches alocated to impressed Ambulances with 'A' prefixes. However it is clear that the numbers quoted above could never have clashed with the AIF numbers. If the vehicles had indeed been acquired locally then they would have carried Mid-East numbers.

Perhaps one day I shall stumble on the National Archives file relating to the official status of the issue of these vehicles unless someone has beaten me to it! Is tghere anything in the Australian Archives perhaps?

Shane Lovell · #18 27-02-04, 00:08

Hi guys

Well I am certainly surprised by the level of response to my original post. As some of the rersponses discuss allocations etc of vehicles to the AIF I thought it appropriate to describe what sources I have found.

2 Advanced Ordnance Workshop (based at Barbara Palestine / Syria ?) - the war diary of this unit has proved absolutely fantastic. It contains the monthy job sheets. These contain details of each vehicle that passed through the workshop, date of arrival, date of completion, WD No, type of vehicle, owner unit and the work undertaken. 1941 is complete and I am about to commence on 1942. There are literally thousands of entries. I will post the portee, universal carrier and gun tractor details that I have collated.

I hope to examine 1 Advanced Ordnance Workshop soon. I am currently assuming that they were at Tobruk and if they contain the work sheets it will be a gold mine.

1, 2, 3, & 4 Army Field Workshops - these also contain a considerable amount of information an include from memory a number of the monthly job sheets. They also frequently contain details from their recovery sections detailing the vehicles they recovered.

There is also all the unit LADs which are a bit hit and miss.

The truth is out there. All that is needed is some poor foolhardy individual who is prepared to transcribe it!

cheers

Shane

Shane Lovell · #19 27-02-04, 00:31

Hi guys

Well I am certainly surprised by the level of response to my original post. As some of the rersponses discuss allocations etc of vehicles to the AIF I thought it appropriate to describe what sources I have found.

2 Advanced Ordnance Workshop (based at Barbara Palestine / Syria ?) - the war diary of this unit has proved absolutely fantastic. It contains the monthy job sheets. These contain details of each vehicle that passed through the workshop, date of arrival, date of completion, WD No, type of vehicle, owner unit and the work undertaken. 1941 is complete and I am about to commence on 1942. There are literally thousands of entries. I will post the portee, universal carrier and gun tractor details that I have collated.

I hope to examine 1 Advanced Ordnance Workshop soon. I am currently assuming that they were at Tobruk and if they contain the work sheets it will be a gold mine.

1, 2, 3, & 4 Army Field Workshops - these also contain a considerable amount of information an include from memory a number of the monthly job sheets. They also frequently contain details from their recovery sections detailing the vehicles they recovered.

There is also all the unit LADs which are a bit hit and miss.

The truth is out there. All that is needed is some poor foolhardy individual who is prepared to transcribe it!

cheers

Shane

Mike Kelly · #20 27-02-04, 16:12

Shane

Are the monthly job sheets you mentioned listed on the AWM war diary PDF archives , or have you done a search manually ?

I cannot find them on the AWM war diary list on their web site ?

Mike

David_Hayward (RIP) · #21 27-02-04, 16:41

In comparison I have just received a large file from the Canadian Archives on the 1 Detachment RCOC in Borden and Aldershot thinking it might have details about vehicles processed. No luck...just a list of personnel numbers over the period of the file and that's it! I am really after the 1 and 2 Detachments, RCOC War Diary for the period from April 1940 but no luck at finding it through the Archives where it should in theory be....it exists because it is referred to in TO THE THUNDERER HIS ARMS. Anyone got any ideas about tracking the WD down please?

Mark W. Tonner · #22 27-02-04, 17:41

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I am really after the 1 and 2 Detachments, RCOC War Diary for the period from April 1940 but no luck at finding it through the Archives where it should in theory be....it exists because it is referred to in TO THE THUNDERER HIS ARMS. Anyone got any ideas about tracking the WD down please?

David;

Have you tried the Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps Museum?

Contact Info:

Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps Museum
6560 Hochelaga Street
C.P. 4000 Station K
Montreal, PQ
H1N 3R9

Tel: (514) 252-2777 local 2241
Fax: (514) 252-2287
rcocmusee@dnd.ca

Curator: MWO (Ret'd) Phil Sippley
Assistant Curator: Francois Oswald
Research Officer: Gilles Pellerin

Cheers

David_Hayward (RIP) · #23 28-02-04, 15:22

I have emailed them thanks.

David

Ken Smith · #24 18-04-11, 01:16

Good day,
I was just trawling through these old posts and this one I found very interesting,Shane asks what CAS stands for,it means Canadian All Steel body,the bodies were thought very highly of for their ease of maintenance compared to the wooden bodies supplied with Australian trucks.
I have a 1941 C60L ex desert truck its original registration number is L 4710841 this is stencilled in black on light stone on the door.When the truck was refurbished and painted olive drab in Australia the registration number became AIF L 4710841 in white on the door.According to Bart Vanderveen this truck had been sent direct to the middle east.
Cheers Ken

David_Hayward (RIP) · #25 18-04-11, 10:21

I am glad when we open up old threads with new information as ordinarily we prefer to start a new one.

This is an interesting find! It is a 1941 Model C60L, model 8443. It was one of a batch Census Numbers L 4710701to L 4711424 that covered trucks acquired and delivered under both Ministry of Supply Demand [contract] Supply-Mechanical or S/M 2033 for 'LORRY 3-TON GS 4 X 4' [ some of which were 'for Egypt', that is assembled by GM Near East Ltd in Alexandria], and S/M 2037, which must have been a mixed order between C60L and CC60L (model 1543X2) and Ford F60L/CF60L, models EC018Q and EC098T 160 in wheelbase trucks. 6,847 were ordered under 2037 with a detsination of Egypt as at 30 June 1942.

Has your truck got a # 12 cab?

As I have said before, trucks delivered to the Mid-East were issued to the AIF, NZEF and Indian Army [and SA Defence Force?], and then at least in the case of the AIF/NZEF were 'sold' to the Dominions for cash paid through London..per Shane's findings! They then ended-up being shipped back to Australasia.

David
Super Moderator

Ken Smith · #26 19-04-11, 03:41

G'day David ,
Thanks for the information and yes my truck is a cab 12,I don't have any id plates on it and was always pleased that it had a registration number still on it.When I was searching for bits for it 30 years ago I found the remains of another cab 12 Chev at the local car wrecker which I took a plate off.It was a very interesting truck as carved into the steering wheel were a few New Guinea place names,these days I would buy the whole wreck but in those days I didn't have the money or the means to get it home.I will see if I can find the plate and give you the details.
Cheers Ken

David_Hayward (RIP) · #27 19-04-11, 10:11

G'day...that wheel must have seen some action and proves that the AIF sent these trucks on to goodness knows where in the East. As an historian I find it amazing that these trucks had such an amazing career. And just think of the shipping that went on!

Ken Smith · #28 19-04-11, 11:08

Good day David,
I found the plate I took off the wrecked Cab 12 it reads
Model 84-43X2
Serial 1844327243
Engine 3758207
Trim XR Paint F.C. 102
Another plate has SPLY/MECH NO. 2033 as per your information
DATE OF MANUFACTURE 9-5-41
Is that September 5th or 9th May for the date?
Cheers Ken

David_Hayward (RIP) · #29 19-04-11, 12:03

These are also [and probably also] similar S/M 2033 trucks (lorries):

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-43X2
SERIAL.1844318023
ENGINE 3726053 BODY SERIAL
TRIM XR PAINT F.C. 102

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-43X2
SERIAL.1844323527
ENGINE 3731861 BODY SERIAL
TRIM XR PAINT F.C. 102

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-43X2
SERIAL.1844327372
ENGINE 3737619 BODY SERIAL
TRIM XR PAINT F.C. 102

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL: 84-43X2
SERIAL NO: 1844325764 SM2033
ENGINE NO: 3754252
TRIM: XR
PAINT: F.C.102

I think that they used the US system of dates at the time. as against the commonly-used British system though I have to say here that even now the date layout varies in this country! So I think the date was September 5th 1941 as against 9th May. However, if the original engine is in there still, the block casting date code will perhaps confirm which it was: The McKinnon Industries foundry used the same system that Flint Grey Foundry used, namely Month-Date-Year. That is in both cases A to L for the Month for Jan to Dec, then 1 to 31 and 0, 1, 2, etc.

A quick check of my database revealed that Engine number R3747383 had a July 14th 1941 casting date so I think that the September 5th '41 date is correct. Windsor Transmission Plant had stockpiles of engines so they got shipped off to Oshawa in no particular numerical order. However, the evidence seems to suggest that I am correct.