Universal Carrier With Conger Device

[TColvin]

Moderator's note: this thread was split from the thread "Ram Kangaroo in Mill, The Netherlands".



Alex.

I think you will find that the site of the airfield at Mill is a gravel pit.

So they have a Conger at Overloon, and you say it was a Carrier. Thanks for that. I did not know how it was carried and actually suspected a Churchill AVRE.
The following about the Conger might interest you and other Carrierphiles, because Overloon must have been about the last time anyone contemplated its use. Nitro was and is too bloody dangerous. By the way, if anybody knows where in the Netherlands the Conger disaster occurred, please let me know.

Conger consisted of a hose filled with explosives for gapping minefields. This was used successfully in the assault on the batteries at Cap Gris Nez according to the 79 Armoured Division’s historian, although J.G. Smith ("In At The Finish" - a marvellous book BTW) who was there said it didn’t work, and was, he thought, the only time it was tried. It was later abandoned after a disaster;
‘But they were dangerous weapons. I have visited a spot in Holland where British tanks - equipped with a more sophisticated flame weapon-called Conger - ignited in a massive fireball when preparing to attack the Germans. The unit lost over 50 men - we stopped using nitroglycerine after that episode. The men were Canadian truck drivers who were delivering the nitro and the tank crews were sappers from Wales!’
Source: Graham Watson: A Brief History of 141st Royal Armored Corps. http://orbat.com/site/history/open1/uk_141rac.html

[TColvin]

Thinking about it, I suspect Conger was an engineless Carrier loaded with the hosepipe of nitroglycerine that was towed behind an AVRE.
Can you confirm that, Alex?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by TColvin
Thinking about it, I suspect Conger was an engineless Carrier loaded with the hosepipe of nitroglycerine that was towed behind an AVRE.
Can you confirm that, Alex?

I believe I can, Tony, although I can't verify... call it CRS, but the source I thought I had seems to have evaporated. I DO know the Conger WAS an engineless, towed carrier, but I'm not sure how it was employed.

Nigel will have some good info on that, though. Start a thread in the Carrier Forum to attract his attention!

G.

PS: Overloon still has an impressive, albeit sobering collection of damaged and destroyed vehicles in the woods surrounding its main building. It's not hard to envision the fate of the men whom those vehicles carried. Quite well done in its own right, albeit different in nature from the best I've seen, which has to be the Land Warfare Museum at Duxford. THAT I'd like to replicate over here in Canada some day.

[Snowtractor]

Universal carrier with Conger 1" device was not used operationally and evolved during march 1944. This was a similar but smaller version of the conger 2in carried in the carrier mkII. The vehicle was fully self-propelled. The line charge could be fitted into any carrier that had been modified to carry the wasp flame equipment.
The Universal carrier with Conger 2"device evolved in Jan 1944 for mine clearance in assault. It was engineless towed into operation by a Sherman or Churchill AVRE. It saw limited service and was modified to Conger configuration by Chubb&Sons Ltd, Wolverhampton.
The explosive device and launcher was the Conger, actually, the carriers were just Universal Carrier With Conger Device.
Sean

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by TColvin
‘But they were dangerous weapons. I have visited a spot in Holland where British tanks - equipped with a more sophisticated flame weapon-called Conger - ignited in a massive fireball when preparing to attack the Germans. The unit lost over 50 men - we stopped using nitroglycerine after that episode.

I can add a little more about this incident, although not the location. Preparations were being made for loading liquid nitro-glycerine in to Conger carriers. Two lorry loads (6 tons), blew up when it was being off loaded in jerricans prior to loading in the carriers. The two lorries completly disappeared and four nearby AVRE's were destroyed. This info came from the book "The Funnies" by Geoffrey Futter, published in 1974.

Richard

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hi,

I just found out that the only full picture I have of the Conger (in Overloon) is the one in this post. The others I have of the Conger are of the suspension (for modeling purposes).

Alex, The Netherlands

[Nigel Watson]

If any one is going to see this carrier could they take a photo of the front please as the Congor had some telling mods done on the front which would be interesting to see. Or maybe there exists one such photo?

Nigel

[Alex van de Wetering]

I just found this text:

"Mine-Clearing Line Charge. A British-made, rocket-deployed, flexible line charge called the "Conger" was developed to overcome the shortcomings of the Snake. The Conger was the first modern mine-clearing line charge. Consisting of 330 yards of specially woven 2-inch diameter flexible hose, it was launched across a minefield by a 5-inch rocket. After the hose was deployed, it was filled with 2,500 pounds of a nitroglycerine-based liquid explosive known as 822C. Because it was so dangerous, the Conger was used in combat only once by the British 79th Armored Division during the battle for Calais on 25 September 1944.43 Modern mine-clearing line charges like the U.S. M58 MICLIC and the British Giant Viper evolved from this device.44"

source: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/l...00-schneck.htm

I also found a picture of a Conger behind an Churchill in David Fletchers book "British Tanks of WW2, part 2 Holland and Germany". I'll scan this picture and post it when I have some time.
A small text with the Photo, says the Conger-accident happened in "IsjenDyke".......??? I don't know where this is. It is lkely to be a Belgian or Dutch village, but spelled wrong. I am from Holland, and I don't know it. I have done a little search, but spelled this way, it doesn't exist in Holland. Any suggetions???

Nigel: Yes, I am interested in any info on the Conger. At first I thought the Overloon-Conger was just an ordinary carrier, but now I know what it really is, it starts to interest me, more and more.
Maybe a dumb question, but how do you know it's a former 1941 mortar carrier? Can you regognize sertain features? Or were all Congers converted mortar carriers......or do you know more about the Overloon-Conger???
I'll try to find someone who has more pictures of the Conger in Overloon

Alex

[Nigel Watson]

Alex I was just going by the T number (WD No.) that's painted on the side. If it was the original number then it was produced as a mortar carrier. We have to find out if the number is original or find some features on that carrier.

Nigel

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by TColvin
Thinking about it, I suspect Conger was an engineless Carrier loaded with the hosepipe of nitroglycerine that was towed behind an AVRE.

Correct - here's a drawing:

Source: http://www.jed.simonides.org/

Originally posted by Alex van de Wetering
A small text with the Photo, says the Conger-accident happened in "IsjenDyke".......??? I don't know where this is. It is lkely to be a Belgian or Dutch village, but spelled wrong. I am from Holland, and I don't know it. I have done a little search, but spelled this way, it doesn't exist in Holland. Any suggetions???

Originally posted by TColvin
By the way, if anybody knows where in the Netherlands the Conger disaster occurred, please let me know.

Alex, Tony, that disaster happened at the Dutch town IJzendijke, close to the Belgian border (see attched pic).

After the Battle magazine issue no. 99 features an article titled "The IJzendijke Explosion - Karel Margry investigates one of the largest accidental explosions of the whole North-West European campaign.".

It was only a few years ago that a monument was unveiled at IJzendijke to commemorate this explosion.

[TColvin]

Thanks, Hanno.
That was during the Battle for the Breskens Pocket when Canadians did much of the heavy lifting - see the Whitakers' 'Tug Of War'.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
I can add a little more about this incident, although not the location. Preparations were being made for loading liquid nitro-glycerine in to Conger carriers. Two lorry loads (6 tons), blew up when it was being off loaded in jerricans prior to loading in the carriers. The two lorries completly disappeared and four nearby AVRE's were destroyed. This info came from the book "The Funnies" by Geoffrey Futter, published in 1974.

Richard

Richard;

To add to your story, I have found a picture of the crater blown when the Conger exploded, along with the remains on one of the lorries. From the book "Vanguard of Victory, The 79th Armoured Division", by David Fletcher.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by TColvin
Thinking about it, I suspect Conger was an engineless Carrier loaded with the hosepipe of nitroglycerine that was towed behind an AVRE.
Can you confirm that, Alex?

Looking down into the Conger carrier, showing the pump housing, hose storage and launcher



Pictures of a Conger on tow:




Cheers

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
To add to your story, I have found a picture of the crater blown when the Conger exploded, along with the remains on one of the lorries.

Mark,
Thats definitely a CMP 3 tonner..........or was. Thanks for finding the photo.

Richard

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hi Guys,

Thanks Hanno for locating IJzendijke and Thanks Mark for the terrific pictures!
The picture, from the book of David Fletcher, that I wanted to scan and post is the same as the last picture that Mark posted.
I am having some doubts on the Overloon-Conger now......Is it really a Conger or just a Universal Carrier with the wrong sign next to it? I am trying to find more pictures of the Overloon-Conger which show the front, but no luck so far! Maybe I am even mad enough to go to Overloon again within a few weeks.

Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hi Guys,

This is amazing! "Speaking of the devil!"
This picture was just posted on the "Allied vehicle modeling forum" on "missing-lynx.com"




Source:
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/...eid=1075297218

bye, Alex

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Alex van de Wetering
This picture was just posted on the "Allied vehicle modeling forum" on "missing-lynx.com"

Hey Alex, did you note those guys are 'murricans!

See http://www.lonesentry.com/S12/page5.html for the rest of the pictures.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hanno,

Yes I noted that they were "Yanks".

If only they had known that a few months later a Conger would explode in a ball of fire, killing 50 men!! If they had known, they probably wouldn't be walking that close to the carrier!


Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hi Guys,

A week ago I visited the Overloon museum again and had the oppertunity to take some shots of the Conger Carrier. As you can see the fittings on the bow still remain, but not much can be seen of the other Conger fittings. I have recently seen a picture of the Conger in Overloon in the 70's, when it was till open-topped and still had some of the superstructure left. At this moment the conger is still on outside dsiplay and this is why it was covered with sheet metal years ago. In some weeks/months the Conger will get a new spot inside the newly built hall, so maybe they will be kind enough to remove the tin-top as well???

regards,

Alex

[john bom]

When I visited Overloon as a youngster in the early sixties the Conger still looked like this.

Greetings, John

[john bom]

About ten years later I payed another visit at Overloon and made this photo showing amongst others the tank inside.

Greetings John

[Alex van de Wetering]

Great shots, John!

I wonder if any of the original equipment is still left underneath the sheet metal!

I guess this is the sole Conger survivor(?)

Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

About a week ago I visited the monument in IJzendijke, returning form "Tanks in Town" in Mons, Belgium.

I was especially interested in this location, because the Overloon museum has decided to restore their Conger to a proper display.

IJzendijke, The Netherlands

[Alex van de Wetering]

Some of you may have read it in the "Windsor- thread" allready; "Liberty parc", the former "War and Resistance museum in Overloon", the Netherlands has given their group of volunteer-restorers permission to restore the Conger carrier and put it on display indoors.

After reading this thread the museum contacted me to ask if I could help them with the restoration and mainly to find information necessary for this restoration.
During the 70’s the Overloon Conger was covered with a sheet metal roof, because of its outside display and sadly some of the specific Conger features have also disappeared since. Recently the Nitro-glycerine tank has been found in the museums storage, which was a relief. But some other parts will need to be reproduced. In some weeks we are going to remove the temporary roof and have a good look inside, to see which features have been preserved inside and which information we can get from the remains.
But to make accurate reproduction possible, we are trying to find every bit of information there is around about the Conger.

We are looking for Technical information, period pictures, measurements, background history, but also pictures from the Overloon-Conger before it was coverd with sheet metal (like the pictures John Bom posted).

Has anyone got more information about the Conger, that could be helfull for our restoration?




Intention is to restore the Conger to a static display, but the real challenge is to reach a satifying result within the museum budget.



Regards,

Alex van de Wetering, The Netherlands

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Alex van de Wetering
We are looking for Technical information, period pictures, measurements, background history, but also pictures from the Overloon-Conger before it was coverd with sheet metal (like the pictures John Bom posted).

Has anyone got more information about the Conger, that could be helfull for our restoration?

Alex, did you contact the Tank Museum in the UK? They should have information on the Conger.

H.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Thanks Hanno. I haven't contacted them yet, but David Fletcher is on my list of people to contact in the upcoming week.


Any other leads are more than appreciated.


Alex

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Alex van de Wetering
I have recently seen a picture of the Conger in Overloon in the 70's, when it was till open-topped and still had some of the superstructure left.

This picture from the 1970s confirms this (source):

[Alex van de Wetering]

Thanks Hanno!

We are still looking for more of these sort of pictures. If forum-members have been to Overloon during the 70's or earlier and you have taken pictures of the still open topped Conger carrier, than please share these with us. These pictures may be able to give us a little more information for the Conger restoration .

regards,

Alex

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Churchill tank tracks found at IJzendijke (source)......

[Tim Bell]

Conger Test Report FYI.



Tim