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  #1  
Old 23-10-05, 23:48
peter simundson peter simundson is offline
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Default More firearms good news

For those hardworking owners of WW 2 Canadian Armoured Vehicles, more good news. The device called a smoke discharger
which has a 4" barrel and the smoke device is propelled by a special cartridge fired by a shortened Ross Rifle, is known as a "Smoke Generator Discharger". It has the normal Ross 5 round capacity and is fired by a cable pull. BUT...and get this...it has an
86 mm barrel. It is therefore listed as a PROHIBITED DEVICE.
Since these cannot be registered to an individual because they are a prohibited device they must be displayed deactivated permanently. Or of course a Museum could register them to its inventory in firing condition.
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Old 24-10-05, 01:33
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Default Prohib

It's a 'prohib' only if it is a firearm. Does it project at greater than 500 ft/sec?
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  #3  
Old 24-10-05, 01:36
Stewart Loy Stewart Loy is offline
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Default Lee who?

Peter,

Because no one would sell me a Ross action to do this conversion, I sacrificed an old SMLE to make mine up. I welded up the barrel prior to chopping the tube off, so I suppose that it was dead before it was short ( where I am just the opposite ).

Did you ever answer the question as to whether a 'deactivation' needs to be 'officially sanctioned' by an inspection by an approved armourer, of similar representative of our PC world?

Thanks,


Stewart


PS - hopefully this is OK, as I drove in front of the PM with it for the D-Day parade in Ottawa 2 years ago. This after the powers that be had made all of the militiamen remove their bayonets from their scabbords, stripped all of the bren guns from the assembled bren gun Carriers, and generally chessed off the assembled HMV gang.
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Old 24-10-05, 02:07
peter simundson peter simundson is offline
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Default Smoke maker

Doesn't matter what it does. Its a listed prohibited device.
In reality you could easily load ball ammunition and fire it PLUS the barrel is under 4" However Mr. Loy you are sly. The Enfield type is NOT a listed device so carry on.
The CPFO's stand on deactivations is that none are legal unless the weapon was legally registered and professionally deactivated and recorded as such.
You may ask what about all those cut Brens and stens and BAR's sold for years with torch cuts. There were saw cut Brens you could buy that if you put in a new barrel and breechblock parts they would fire. My deep feeling is that one day all these "dewats" will have to be registered as such. If not professionally done ie barrel drilled and pinned to frame, trigger
group complete and welded in place and top cover welded on
this will have to be done or they will be seized. Although it is not common information the War Museum is deactivating their display weapons.
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  #5  
Old 24-10-05, 03:34
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Default Re: Smoke maker

Quote:
Originally posted by peter simundson
Doesn't matter what it does. Its a listed prohibited device.
Where is this listed?
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  #6  
Old 24-10-05, 04:11
peter simundson peter simundson is offline
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Default FRT

Firearms Reference Tables - RCMP
24 thousand odd different types.
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  #7  
Old 24-10-05, 06:31
rob love rob love is offline
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"Did you ever answer the question as to whether a 'deactivation' needs to be 'officially sanctioned' by an inspection by an approved armourer, of similar representative of our PC world? "

My experience with deactivating guns (and I've done a few of them) is that there was a change in the last year where the CFC now wants the signiture of either a liscenced gunsmith, or a police officer, to verify that a firearm has been deactivated to the Cdn firearms manual guidelines. Previous to this, you just filled out the form they sent you, mailed it in, and in a month or two they would send you a letter acknowledgeing the deactivation.

Ontario seems to have it's own guidelines, which overlap the federal laws. Even the requirement to have someone verify that the gun has been deactivated is not in the firearms act but rather is a recent policy change by the registrar. The law says that you only have to notify the registrar when a firearm has been modified so as not to meet the definition of a firearm.

As to the Ross rifle smoke discharger, I would suggest that those who cut down a Ross Rifle to make one of these, counterbore it so there is no Rifling in the barrel. That way it will not be capable of firing a projectile over 500 fps. However, in reality, is has always been a criminal code offence to shorten a barrel to below 18" in length. So better yet is to have a new barrel made up for the purpose. Again, ensure there is no chance of it discharging a projectile. Without a proper diameter barrel, the bullet will literally fall out of the casing.
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  #8  
Old 24-10-05, 12:49
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by rob love
As to the Ross rifle smoke discharger, I would suggest that those who cut down a Ross Rifle to make one of these, counterbore it so there is no Rifling in the barrel. That way it will not be capable of firing a projectile over 500 fps. However, in reality, is has always been a criminal code offence to shorten a barrel to below 18" in length. So better yet is to have a new barrel made up for the purpose. Again, ensure there is no chance of it discharging a projectile. Without a proper diameter barrel, the bullet will literally fall out of the casing.
I put it to you that the corrollary to this is that IF the action (Ross/SMLE) can be removed from the discharger cup, and IF it can chamber a live round, it COULD be construed as a prohibited weapon. This is dangerous ground to be on.

I don't know enough anymore about the current rules/regulations/whims of the various firearms control agencies to comment on the status of any given dewat, except to hazard a guess that if you have one which meets the criteria specified by the feds, you're probably on safe ground, given that there used to be no requirement to register them or otherwise record when the deactivation was done. If you're going to have a deactivation done in order to dress up a vehicle, best to follow the proper paper trail - better safe than sorry.

It's idiotic, isn't it? :
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  #9  
Old 24-10-05, 13:39
Neil Ashley Neil Ashley is offline
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British Police came to the conclusion about 10 years ago that smoke dischargers being under the permitted barrel length were in reality illeagal firearms.

To any one strictly applying gun law definitions this was always obvious but by this time hundreds of post-war AFV's had been sold on to the collectors market with live smoke dischargers.

Luckily no retrospective attempt has been made by the Police to persue vehicle owners, but where owners have attracted the unwelcome attention of the Police for other reasons, they have then insisted that the dischargers are officaly deactivated.

The problem with deactivating war-time Dischargers in the UK is that the barrels (tube) have to be permanently attached to the actions thereby preventing mounting where the action is inside the vehicle.
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  #10  
Old 24-10-05, 19:48
peter simundson peter simundson is offline
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Default Deac's

A deac. inspection is nor required since the Ontario CPFO requires
a deactivation to be done by a deactivator on their list. He then informs CFC directly that the dirty deed is done and they mail a letter confirming the firearm has been deactivated and must remain that way (or else?). I agree on overlap of laws, in fact you can download the deac. form, complete it and mail it and likely
they would remove it from registration. HOWEVER we then bump noses with the CFPO who wants a pro to do it. I mean after all
if it has to be done why not have a guy on the list do it?? Any problems afterwards are his. You did the right thing.
A local large Military Club does his own welding and mails in the form. He doesn't do it by code ( not leaving the trigger group complete and welding it in place) but says his way is just as good.
He even pulls out the barrel on big full autos because its too hard to drill through. Then drops a bolt in and welds it there.
The specs are there why take thechance? As far as the Smoke dischargers go, in reality I don't think they have time to notice them but just the same they are on the prohibited list.
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  #11  
Old 25-10-05, 15:33
centurion centurion is offline
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Default spigots

A wayward thought occurs - There is a well known photograph of a Canadian Carrier with a battery of PIATs fitted to its rear. If some one was to turn up with a reconstruction of the same what would be the position vis a vis the PIAT - as a spigot mortar it has no barrel? Can one have a barreless fire arm?
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  #12  
Old 25-10-05, 16:03
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Default Definition

The Criminal Code states that a; "firearm" means a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm.
So a spigot mortar would not be considered a barrelled weapon in its strictest sense. A court could change this however.
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  #13  
Old 25-10-05, 16:51
peter simundson peter simundson is offline
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Default Piats

Piats fall under Ordnance, same as Mortars and are not controlled (yet). But the first time one shows up on display in a carrier uninvited on Parliament Hill that could change.
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  #14  
Old 25-10-05, 21:20
centurion centurion is offline
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Buy Blacker Bombards now
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  #15  
Old 30-10-05, 03:22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
I

I don't know enough anymore about the current rules/regulations/whims of the various firearms control agencies to comment on the status of any given dewat,
Up until 2000 when I moved to Texas I was a C.O.R.E. Examiner, Certified Firearms Instructor, and Firearms Verifier in B.C. There seems to be as much confusion now as there was then. It appears the government has done very little to educate the firearm owners of Canada as to what must have been done to a firearm to be classified a "DEWAT" Reading the threads addressing this issue reflect that confusion. Unless the requirements have changed since 2000 you must:

1) If the firearm has a chamber you must mill a longitudinal slot into the chamber.
2) The bolt or breechblock must have a hole drilled into it's face so as to prevent the use of a firing pin.
3) The barrel must have a mandrel welded into it, The material used for welding the mandrel must be of a harder metal than the barrel to prevent the mandrel from being removed without destroying the barrel.
4) Any centrefire detachable box magazine must have been PERMANENTLY pinned or filled so as to prevent it from holding more than 5 cartridges...(That's detachable box magazine, Dave, not clip!)
5) In the case of a Converted auto you must remove the safety sear and permanently weld the selector switch.


These are only a few of the Federal regulations. Your local Chief Firearms Officer may decide to add a few of his own. For example, try to find a Brengun in B.C. where the gas tube hasn't been welded closed.
Any H.A.C.S. member from B.C. can tell you horror stories about the RCMP gun lab in Vancouver. They'll spend whatever money is required to get your confiscated DEWAT running again, and then tell you it is going to be confiscated and destroyed because it's now "full auto" Then surprisingly, months later that firearm shows up for sale!? I remember a certain museum quality MG42 that ended up that way. Things that make you go hmmmm?

Man! am I glad I live in Texas!
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  #16  
Old 30-10-05, 04:04
peter simundson peter simundson is offline
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Default DEAC

Delete No. 1 not req'd.
Bolt face must be ground, or cut so it cannot pick up ammo.
ALL full auto parts must remain in firearm and all must be permanently destroyed by grinding and welding in place.
Correct on mags. originally they had to be welded in the weapon but this is not enforced.
The receiver has to be permanently welded closed.
Trigger parts cannot function but the bolt or slide can be moved back.
A hardened steel pin of minimum inside barrel dia. up to 1/2 inch must be installed in a hole drilled through the frame and barrel and into the other side of the barrel and welded in place with hardened rod.
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  #17  
Old 30-10-05, 14:56
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Default Re: DEAC

Quote:
Originally posted by peter simundson
Delete No. 1 not req'd.
Bolt face must be ground, or cut so it cannot pick up ammo.
ALL full auto parts must remain in firearm and all must be permanently destroyed by grinding and welding in place.
Correct on mags. originally they had to be welded in the weapon but this is not enforced.
The receiver has to be permanently welded closed.
Trigger parts cannot function but the bolt or slide can be moved back.
A hardened steel pin of minimum inside barrel dia. up to 1/2 inch must be installed in a hole drilled through the frame and barrel and into the other side of the barrel and welded in place with hardened rod.

Confusion reigns to this day!

It appears that there may regional discrepancies as to what constitutes a DEWAT. I purchased an Inglis Mk.1 Brengun at a firearms auction in Burnaby which came complete with a letter of examination from the RCMP firearms lab in Vancouver listing the modifications which made it a Dewat. The only alteration to the bolt was a hole drilled in the face so as to prevent the retention of a firing pin. This concurs with the info passed down to me as a Certified Firearm Instructor from the CPFO.
As a C.O.R.E. Examiner I received deactivated firearms from the Provincial Government to use as training aids. All had longitudinal slots milled into the chamber(s) which again was mandated by the CPFO.
It doesn't surprise me that there are descrepancies across Canada as to the legal requirements involving firearms. Just about every government official I have dealt with, from Kim Campbell on down has shown a staggering ignorance of the subject. Most government officials receive their position because of cronyism or political expediency, not because of expertise in the subject. Case in point: Back in the golden days of firearm ownership I used to take my M-14 which was converted to semi-auto only to the range where I competed in Fullbore competitions as well as in I.P.S.C. Three Gun matches. I also used my M-14 for hunting. Loaded with 150gr. expanding tip bullets, it was a handy, accurate, dependable rifle for Black bear and Deer. Well!, imagine my confusion when Kim Campbell informed me and the Canadian public that there are no "legitimate sporting purposes" for my rifle! HUH?

I repeat, "Man am I glad that I live in Texas!"
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  #18  
Old 30-10-05, 17:38
rob love rob love is offline
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Here is the Canadian deactivation guidelines from the Cdn Firearms manual. Note these are guidelines, and are not law. The law is that to be a firearm, the firearm must easily be made to discharge a projectile to cause serious bodily harm.
The mere removal of parts does not constitute deactivation, however, there are other ways than those listed below to deactivate a firearm. It's just that to currently deregister a gun, you are signing a statement that the deactivation meets these guidelines.

1. Deactivation of Small Arms of Calibre 20 mm or Less

a. Semi-automatic, Full Automatic, Selective Fire, and Converted Firearms

1. A hardened steel blind pin of bore diameter or larger must be force fitted through the barrel at the chamber, and where practical, simultaneously through the frame or receiver, to prevent chambering of ammunition. Furthermore, the blind pin must be welded in place so that the exposed end of the pin is completely covered by weld. This strength and hardness of the weld must be similar to that of the metal used in the construction of the firearm. In the case of firearms having calibres greater than 12.7mm (.5 inch), the pin need not be larger in diameter than 12.7mm. In the case of multi-barrelled firearms, all barrels must be pinned, using as many pins as necessary to block all chambers.

2. The barrel must be welded to the frame or receiver to prevent replacement.

3. The breech face or portion of the breech bolt which supports the cartridge must be removed or drilled out to a diameter at least as large as the base of the cartridge, so that the bolt can no longer support the cartridge.

4. The receiver must be welded closed to prevent replacement of the breech bolt.

5. In the case of firearms designed to support full-automatic fire, the trigger mechanism must be rendered unusable. Any trigger mechanism part or component which is necessary for full-automatic fire must be destroyed by cutting or grinding and welded in place to prevent replacement.

b. Rifles, Shotguns and Handguns Other Than Revolvers

1. The barrel, bolt and frame or receiver must be modified as in 1.a.

2. The bolt, if present as a separate piece, must be welded to the frame or receiver to prevent replacement.

c. Revolvers, Revolving Rifles and Shotguns, and Cap and Ball Revolvers

1. The barrel and cylinder must be blocked by a hardened steel pin of bore diameter which traverses the entire length of the barrel and cylinder. The pin must be welded in place at the muzzle, barrel/cylinder gap and except for muzzle-loading firearms, at the breech end of the frame. The strength and hardness of the welds must be similar to that of the firearm.

d. Black Powder Rifles and Shotguns

1. The barrel must be blocked immediately forward of the flash hole using a blind pin in the manner described in paragraph 1.c.l.

2. The flash hole must be welded closed. In the case of percussion guns, the nipple may be welded closed and then welded to the barrel to prevent replacement.

e. Magazines

1. The magazine follower must be welded to the interior of the magazine to prevent loading of ammunition.

2. The body of the magazine must be welded to the frame or receiver to prevent removal or replacement.

2. Firearms of Unusual Design or Construction

a. Allowances may be made for variations of the procedures outlined in 1.a. to e. if the firearm is made of unusual substances or is of an unusual design. However, any variation in the procedure must accomplish the same goals as the original procedures.
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  #19  
Old 30-10-05, 17:45
peter simundson peter simundson is offline
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Default Confusion

You hit it right on the head. Milling a slot is part of the Brit deactivation and is excellent. As a matter of fact their deac. is the best as it only invoves milling and is not seen when completed.
RCMP and OPP are quite different. Since I report to OPP I adhere strictly to their guidelines. In the "Old Days" Police Firearms Departments could let Museums visit and would turn over
neat items to them. This, of course, has now been deleted.
In their defence OPP has been good to our Museum and made available Three incredibly scarce 1865 period seizures that they could have easily destroyed. MLU members should be aware that the firearms departments of individual forces no longer have access to donated weapons. They are given a property receipt at the desk and sent directly for examination, then destruction.
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  #20  
Old 30-10-05, 17:57
centurion centurion is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by rob love
d. Black Powder Rifles and Shotguns

1. The barrel must be blocked immediately forward of the flash hole using a blind pin in the manner described in paragraph 1.c.l.

2. The flash hole must be welded closed. In the case of percussion guns, the nipple may be welded closed and then welded to the barrel to prevent replacement.

Amazing Canadian regs are even stricter than UK. Here there is a date cut off so that older weapons are 'legal' allowing black powder flintlock and percussion firearms to be treated as antiques and not deactivated. In very simple terms if you can put a cartridge in it it needs to be licensed or deactivated, if you have to ram the loose powder and ball in and add a seperate percussion cap or priming then its probably ok (which is slightly illogical as a cap and ball revolver can still be a pretty lethal weapon). Still no one's held up a bank witha horse pistol recently. Doubtless the powers that be will soon take action in case highway men become active on Hampstead Heath again.
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  #21  
Old 30-10-05, 23:29
peter simundson peter simundson is offline
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Default Black Powder

Here's more. .577 Sniders or 577/450 Martinis are non weapons and do not require registration, nor do any flint or percussion, if original. BUT...and get this if your Martini is .303, as some carbines are, it must be registered likewise if your black powder is a repeater (Spencer Rifle and Carbine) it must be also. You're safe on persussion cap and ball unless you fire them. However all reproduction cap and ball must be registered.
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