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Old 14-08-17, 14:35
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Default The Calgary Tank Churchills From Dieppe

Ran across a post raid photo of 'BERT' with a thrown left track and wondered if any of the Churchills were ever discovered anywhere after the war, or had they all been hauled away and recycled by the Germans?

David
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Old 14-08-17, 16:24
rob love rob love is offline
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I suspect that the Churchills, being somewhat slow and undergunned, did not fit into the German order of battle. There is a reference to the Germans suspecting that the UK had sent obsolete tanks into the raid expecting them to be lost.

Even if they were buried as gun emplacements, the main gun would not have been supported for spares or munitions.

I look forward to hearing different as to whether any of the dieppe tanks survived in any form.
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Old 14-08-17, 23:27
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
I suspect that the Churchills, being somewhat slow and undergunned, did not fit into the German order of battle. There is a reference to the Germans suspecting that the UK had sent obsolete tanks into the raid expecting them to be lost.

Even if they were buried as gun emplacements, the main gun would not have been supported for spares or munitions.

I look forward to hearing different as to whether any of the dieppe tanks survived in any form.
The German's put the track back on BERT (lord knows they had several spare Churchills to get track from) and used it to haul the other Churchills off the beach.
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Old 15-08-17, 11:10
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
Ran across a post raid photo of 'BERT' with a thrown left track and wondered if any of the Churchills were ever discovered anywhere after the war, or had they all been hauled away and recycled by the Germans?
In general, the German Army made heavy use of captured material in any shape of form. If equipment was not useable in the frontline, it was used for guard & policing duties or training. If no operational use was possible, it was recycled to feed the German war machine. So, very little from the early war years is left.

What I gleaned from forums like https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=27180, is that the German Army was able to make up one running Churchill Mk.III from the Dieppe wrecks and used it for instruction and training. I reckon they were able to get more running out of the total of 53 which landed at Dieppe.

From Atkin, Ronald. Dieppe 1942: The Jubilee Disaster. (London: Book Club Associates, 1980) p. 262:
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The Germans were also unimpressed by the specifications of Churchill tanks left behind after the withdrawal. One report assessed that, "in its present form the Churchill is easy to fight". Its gun was described as "poor and obsolete", and the armour was compared unfavourably with that used in German and Soviet tanks.
Interesting to note is that as a consequence of the lessons learned at Dieppe, the British developed a whole range of specialist armoured vehicles which allowed their engineers to perform many of their tasks protected by armour, most famously "Hobart's Funnies". Thus, the Churchill AVRE, succesfully deployed on D-Day less than 2 years later, was the direct result of the failure of deploying earlier Churchill types at Dieppe.

HTH,
Hanno

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Old 15-08-17, 14:22
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Hanno. Thanks for posting that photo of BERT. It appears to be an uncropped version of the one I saw recently and would suggest BERT actually made it off the beach and to some point into Dieppe itself.

David
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Old 15-08-17, 14:56
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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David,

There are a number of detailed books available about Operation Jubilee, DIEPPE THROUGH THE LENS springs to mind:

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The 14th Canadian Army Tank Regiment was one of the first Canadian armoured regiments to be formed and was also the first to be committed to battle. The action of every one of the regiment's tanks that landed at Dieppe is described in detail by Hugh G. Henry Jr who has spent several years on his research and interviewed all the regiment's survivors. Every Churchill tank and armoured car left behind on the beach is pictured - one large photo per page - selected from the very best photographic coverage of the time. In addition, annotated aerial photographs by Jean Paul Pallud pinpoint and identify the position of every vehicle and full crew list are given for each. The result is a uniquely illustrated 'after-action' report of Canada's worst military defeat.
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Old 15-08-17, 17:27
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Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
What I gleaned from forums like https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=27180, is that the German Army was able to make up one running Churchill Mk.III from the Dieppe wrecks and used it for instruction and training. I reckon they were able to get more running out of the total of 53 which landed at Dieppe.
"53 which landed at Dieppe?" . . . Hanno - Of the 30 Churchill tanks of the Calgary Regiment that attempted to land, two were drowned and 27 others made it ashore, while the remaining tanks returned to the United Kingdom, having been unable to land.

Cheers
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Old 15-08-17, 22:46
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner View Post
"53 which landed at Dieppe?" . . . Hanno - Of the 30 Churchill tanks of the Calgary Regiment that attempted to land, two were drowned and 27 others made it ashore, while the remaining tanks returned to the United Kingdom, having been unable to land.
Mark, apologies: I should have checked my sources better!

As the author of this book (http://www.servicepub.com/churchill.htm), could you fill in some of the blanks?

Cheers,
Hanno
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Old 15-08-17, 23:08
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29 tanks landed, 15 got off the beach and spent the day going back and forth on the promenade until they either fell into holes or had a track shot off. Once the "vanquish" order was given the tanks that were able to we recalled to the beach and tried to line up parallel to the water. This was done to help provide cover for the withdrawal of the infantry.

No tanks were able to ever exit into the town. All of the exit roads except for one (Rue de Synagogue) had been blocked by concrete walls. The exit road had a concrete wall with a large steel gate in it. This was also covered by an anti tank gun further up the road away from the beach.

In some original source documents from the RHLI war diaries there is some mention by a couple soldiers under Cpt Hill, who encountered this gun while in the area of the Dieppe post office a few blocks into town away from the beach.
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Old 27-08-17, 23:49
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This is worth a read as well:

https://servicepub.wordpress.com/201...9-august-1942/
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