Cab 12 roof weakness

Keith Webb · #1 07-04-04, 23:36

Just came across this pic on the AWM database (ID Number:
077451

Physical description:
Black & white

Summary:
LAE BASE AREA, NEW GUINEA. 1944-12-04. TX14492 CRAFTSMAN R.G. SPEARS (1) AND TX13687 CRAFTSMAN W.A. HODGE (2) RECOVERY CREW OF THE 2/77TH LIGHT AID DETACHMENT LIFTING A JEEP IN PREPARATION FOR TOWING IT BACK TO THE UNIT FOR REPAIRS.)
and noticed the cab 12 has had braces made up for the roof.
This used to be a common thing to see in post-war civilian use and obviously there was a weakness in the design, but I think this is the first time I've seen it on a picture taken during the war.

Philliphastings · #2 08-04-04, 03:11

Hi Kieth,

An interesting image. I have seen a number of pictures of the remaining vehicle wrecks at Truscott ('secret airbase') field in North West WA. Many of the CMP cabins have this modification and I have always assumed that they were still in their WW2 configuration. Truscott is an extremely isolated location. The vehicles were brought to the spot by the Army via landing craft I believe.

If anyone has the 'Bush Tucker Man' video series you can see the vehicle park briefly in one episode. There is also a very detailed book now released with the full Story of the Airbase named after Ace pilot 'Bluey' Truscott.

As an a side, a fair bit of scrap was salvaged from Truscott in years gone by and some of it is still piled up rusting away in a yard near Perth, with an assortments of aircraft, gun and vehicle parts, some of which were scratchbuilt in the airfield workshop at Truscott.

Cheers

Phill

Bob Carriere · #3 08-04-04, 03:12

Are we sure they are braces for the roof????

We use to run old Dodge M 37 in the Canadian bush and after breaking windshields.... windscreens for some of you...hihi.. we installed small square tubing from the nose guard/grill to the roof... No more problems....

What happens when you are driving in dence brush is that some branches get caught below the hood line.... as you move forward they bend... and if by chance they manage to creep above the hood line..... smack right in the kisser!!!! it is amazing what a 4 inch green limb can pack as a punch......

The guards deflects the branches over the roof..... and dents your aluminum boat on top...!!!

From the background of the photo it could be why they ahve them....

My Canadian 5 cents worth...

Philliphastings · #4 08-04-04, 03:33

Trying to post a pic here...

Keith Webb · #5 08-04-04, 04:20

Hi Bob

There is a weakness at the top of the A pillar which often fractures. I've also seen them break at the lower end of the A pillar.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob C.
Are we sure they are braces for the roof????

We use to run old Dodge M 37 in the Canadian bush and after breaking windshields.... windscreens for some of you...hihi.. we installed small square tubing from the nose guard/grill to the roof... No more problems....

Philliphastings · #6 08-04-04, 04:41

Hi Keith and Bob,

Well for starters I think I'll just forget about trying to post images - I can scan them in Ok but that's where it ends for my PC ! The image I tried to send was of an example which used to be rusting away in the Blue Mountains National Park until it disappeared a few years back.

I have seen and even dragged home a few of the early cabins, all of which had at least one windscreen pillar broken and repaired over the years. These early brackets were hardly a monument to solidarity. I'm thinking toward strengthening brackets as their true purpose.

On the subject of branches catching the windscreen as the vehicle passes, from my own experience driving a cab 13 in close scrubby country, the branches had a habit of catching in the angle at the base of the cab 13 windscreen and top of the front sheet metal where the pressure would build up then catapault the branch down the sider of the vehicle and often whack the driver on the side of the head along the way.

Incidentally I have heard speculation as to why the windscreen angle was reversed in the cab 13. it is my understanding that this was done to reduce the reflection and thus aid camouflage from the air and on the ground, and also to provide an optically 'flat' view of the road ahead of the vehicle...

Cheers

Phill

Keith Webb · #7 08-04-04, 05:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Philliphastings
On the subject of branches catching the windscreen as the vehicle passes, from my own experience driving a cab 13 in close scrubby country, the branches had a habit of catching in the angle at the base of the cab 13 windscreen and top of the front sheet metal where the pressure would build up then catapault the branch down the sider of the vehicle and often whack the driver on the side of the head along the way.

Incidentally I have heard speculation as to why the windscreen angle was reversed in the cab 13. it is my understanding that this was done to reduce the reflection and thus aid camouflage from the air and on the ground, and also to provide an optically 'flat' view of the road ahead of the vehicle...

I can relate to the being whacked in the side of the head!
You are right about the reverse slope windscreens. You may have noticed 4 footman loops across the roof of some blitzes... according to Mike Cecil these are for securing canvas sheaths for the windscreens whilst driving with them open. Whilst I have never seen one in the 'canvas', I have found a photograph with a truck which appears to have them in place.

This pic is on one of my pages
The other design element of the sloping front shell was to prevent snow and slush (the sort of stuff we rarely see here in Oz) piling up.

Hanno Spoelstra · #8 08-04-04, 09:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Webb
Just came across this pic on the AWM database (ID Number: 077451

Unless your browser has this image cached, it does not show up when linked to this forum. For those who are unable to find the picture in the AWM database, it goes attached here:

Keith Webb · #9 08-04-04, 22:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Unless your browser has this image cached, it does not show up when linked to this forum. For those who are unable to find the picture in the AWM database, it goes attached here:

Aaahhh. Thanks, Hanno.
I didn't realise this happened. I know how to do it now.

Keith Webb · #10 09-04-04, 18:20

Source: http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/

Image No: an013293
Accession: H98.103/1944

Australian Armed Forces, Dutch New Guinea and Borneo, World War II] [picture]
Date(s) of creation: [ca. 1945]
7 photographs : gelatin silver ; 12.0 x 18.0 cm. approx. and smaller.
Reproduction rights: State Library of Victoria.

Bob Carriere · #11 10-04-04, 04:48

After looking at the second, picture the brace is certainly sturdy enough to brace the windscreen. Was the cab 12 with the opening windscreen weaker than the solid Cab 11 windshield???

I have very limited experience with the cab 12.... on the cab 11 the windscreen bracket looks forged stamped with only two bolts on each side going through the side of the cab.... on top of the bracket is a pipe section going up to the roof. In a lot of case the top corner .. where it reaches the roof becomes seperated from the stretcher that holds up the top part of the windshield and runs parallel to the roof line. Certainly the whole roof assembly cannot be very strong when the the side window opening is framed in hard wood with some small L brackets.

I rolled over 2 1/2 turns in a M37 and drove it back 100 miles albeit with cracked windows and skewed windscreen..... seatsbelts saved the day....passenger and I walked out with bruised pride and not a scratch...... I would not want to do that with the roof of the cab 11......

But I am sure that the way that brace is positioned....and the fender would not be the strongest location for a strong brace...it would have come in handy in deflecting tensioned branches away from the poor driver...particularly when drving w/o the door....

Hanno Spoelstra · #12 10-04-04, 15:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Webb
Aaahhh. Thanks, Hanno.
I didn't realise this happened. I know how to do it now.

Keith, it is only necessary for AWM pictures, the SLV site permits linking pictures (technically speaking, that is!), so I've edited your posts to save Sunray's valuable server space.

H.

Hanno Spoelstra · #13 10-04-04, 15:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Philliphastings
Incidentally I have heard speculation as to why the windscreen angle was reversed in the cab 13. it is my understanding that this was done to reduce the reflection and thus aid camouflage from the air and on the ground, and also to provide an optically 'flat' view of the road ahead of the vehicle...

Phill, according to the manual, the windscreen angle was reversed to reduce glare in the windscreen glass - not to aid camouflage, but to increase visibility during driving at night under black-out conditions.

Cheers,
Hanno

Bob Moseley (RIP) · #14 18-04-04, 13:05

Hi Keefy
Had this photo for a while but never took notice until this thread. Its allegedly another AWM photo but I obtained it from another source. Description states "Army trucks arrive at Alice Springs by train on way to Birdum, T.A.R. for Darwin. Persons are Eric Suanders, Mal Leithbridge and Les Martin". Photographer G. Morgan.
Bob

Bob Moseley (RIP) · #15 18-04-04, 13:17

Forgot to mention in the description circa 1942.

Bob Carriere · #16 19-04-04, 04:37

After seeing more of pictures of these braces... the positioning could only be to brace the windscreen... it is too far back of the headlights and radiator to be of any use except solidify the windshield.....

Now if the Aussies didn't drive their monkey face so hard they would not have need that contraption.....

Nice pictures.....

Hanno Spoelstra · #17 03-06-04, 23:06

Pic of a surviving (but not for much longer!) F60L Cab 12 with windscreen braces:

Source: http://www.oldcmp.net/kingacab12.html

David_Hayward (RIP) · #18 04-06-04, 10:45

That photo of the # 12 Cab...C60L??? [please correct!] has WD Census Number [L] 4624486. That is a British series Mid-East allocation number, and yet the truck is clearly marked 'AIF' and is in Aussie service. I wonder if it was one of the batch to S/M 2019. It is another example of the British issues to Commonwealth forces in the Mid-East that were then taken over and paid for in due course.

Keith Webb · #19 04-06-04, 23:07

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
That photo of the # 12 Cab...C60L??? [please correct!] has WD Census Number [L] 4624486. That is a British series Mid-East allocation number, and yet the truck is clearly marked 'AIF' and is in Aussie service. I wonder if it was one of the batch to S/M 2019. It is another example of the British issues to Commonwealth forces in the Mid-East that were then taken over and paid for in due course.

Well spotted, David.
On having another look at the pic I notice it has been fitted with a Ford front axle too. Possibly it returned with our troops as did a lot of interesting equipment.
Many of the C60L cab 12s I've seen here are in desert colour, whilst none of the Fords are.
An example is this C60L belonging to Max Hedges:

More images here

Max Hedges · #20 06-06-04, 11:22

I believe all C60L cab 12 in Australia were brought back to Australia from the Middle East during the war as only ford cab 12's were ordered by Australia. If you notice most chev cab 12's don't have Australian roof hatches.

Max

Mike Kelly · #21 06-06-04, 18:14

I have on loan , a book written by Driver F.G. Mathieson NX 18655

He provides a list of vehicles his unit had , when his unit returned from the Middle East to unload at Adelaide , his unit was the 7th div Ammun sub park .

Among the list is : CAS = CANADIAN ALL STEEL

L 4416466 3 TON CAS
L 4418677 " "
L 1266781 " "

Many more are listed , all with L 441 and L126 prefix's . These are all cab 12 chev's I think .

He also lists the drivers allocated to each truck .

e.g. L 4418713 driver COLLEY D. NX 15042

His own truck was a British Fordson 15cwt wot2 Z 4505095

Mike

David_Hayward (RIP) · #22 06-06-04, 21:07

Z 4504102 to 4508131 Contract V .4150 Truck 15 cwt 4x2 GS FORDSON W0T2H [August 1940 or so contract]

All the others MAY be to S/M 2019....these were all Mid-East numbers and I have no record of them. If I could be supplied please with a complete listing I can add them to my listing and I might eventually make some patterns. Somewhere are the original record cards with the number runs...presumably still in the defunct Beverley museum.

dougiebarder · #23 06-06-04, 23:35

I don't know if this is old news, but the Beverley records have been transferred to Deepcut barracks, and will be avaliable for research in a couple of month's. (or so I've heard)

Keith Webb · #24 07-06-04, 00:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Max Hedges
I believe all C60L cab 12 in Australia were brought back to Australia from the Middle East during the war as only ford cab 12's were ordered by Australia. If you notice most chev cab 12's don't have Australian roof hatches.

Thanks, Max.
That would explain why we have examples of C8 and c15 cab 11/12s, but very few early Fords apart from the F60L cab 12s.
The exceptions would be things like cab 11 F60L and the occasional cab 12 gun tractor, all of which are extremely scarce.
As for roof hatches, any Chev cab 12s with them might have had roof swaps, or retrofits.