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  #1  
Old 18-04-05, 22:20
Richard Notton
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Default Re: Morris again

Thread split from Under New Management:

While we're on CS8 trucks, that young Rory Ballard has just bought this. . . . . . . . .

R.


Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 20-05-12 at 21:24.
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  #2  
Old 18-04-05, 22:24
Richard Notton
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Default Re: Re: Morris again

Just to let loose another snippet and start a stampede of people frantically scratching about by the front, left dumb-iron; early CS8's have the Z number stamped in the chassis.

R.
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  #3  
Old 18-04-05, 22:26
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Default Re: Re: Re: Morris again

Nice to have the original WD tax disc holder and its disc too!!

R.
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  #4  
Old 18-04-05, 22:29
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Default Re: Re: Morris again

Quote:
Originally posted by FV623

While we're on CS8 trucks, that young Rory Ballard has just bought this. . . . . . . . .
.....and it would appear to have the original civvy reg. number as used by the War Office, registered in Middlesex.

Richard


PS just seen previous post re. tax disc, beat me too it
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  #5  
Old 18-04-05, 22:33
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Default Re: Re: Morris again

Quote:
Originally posted by FV623
While we're on CS8 trucks, that young Rory Ballard has just bought this. . . . . . . . .
so how the h#ll does he plan to drive all those MC's?!? About time he starts working on some copies of himself to drive them instead of tinkering with trucks!

H.
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  #6  
Old 18-04-05, 23:29
Richard Notton
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Default Re: Re: Re: Morris again

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
so how the h#ll does he plan to drive all those MC's?!? About time he starts working on some copies of himself to drive them instead of tinkering with trucks!
Well, I don't know. There's the CDSW as an n thousand pound as new, un-run engine, restored gearbox/winch and reworked chassis and axles with bits of new-build body stored here and there. The CS8 radio truck of a very early vintage used for trial installations and almost certainly the one pictured in "Wireless for the Warrior", but this is a pile of bits (rusty) and a self flat-packed body. (THAT rotten).

The CS8 came from a friend locally who is now too ill to drive and wanted it to go to a good MCC home.

In fact has not been used since Rory last used it as the hearse for his elder brother's funeral some years ago, the occasion before I knew them and I chased it for a few miles to speak to the driver having seen it whizz past my front window in Shirrell Heath several times.

Having stopped at a traffic light and spoken with Rory he said he call round later as he was going to a funeral; somewhat strange I thought in a CS8, jeans and a Led Zeppelin T shirt.

Beats the hell out of top hats and black Rollers though and hugely cheaper, I approve; hopefully "you" can use my 623, no struggling with heavy boxes - use the Atlas.

Rory may sell it yet though, he realises there are almost too many MCs in Nightingale Crescent and although being in good order, it is an older restoration and you know as well as I, they'd have it apart and start again from the mud up and that's a 3K GBP job on the engine alone.

Then there's my blasting bill for the metalwork. . . . . . . . . .

As Richard F has recorded, the retention of the original pre-war civvy/army registration number is rather nice and the correct, early tax disc tops it off.

I think he should keep it; now if only we could find one of those MCC 6x4 staff cars. . . . . . . . . . .

R.
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  #7  
Old 19-04-05, 00:03
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Default Rego

The FMX series, i.e. Middlesex County Council, would appear to date to 1937. I know the WD were allocated number batches and this could be outside the civilian series, but could it be an early C.S.8...model C.S.8T??? I canot decipher the Census number. Combination of myopia and astigmatism. Obviously given the number we can not only confirm the contract number buit, armed with that info, ask Mr David Fletcher at Bovington to look up the contract card and find the date of the contract, delivery dates and prices.
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  #8  
Old 20-04-05, 00:02
Richard Notton
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Default Re: Rego

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Hayward
The FMX series, i.e. Middlesex County Council, would appear to date to 1937. I know the WD were allocated number batches and this could be outside the civilian series, but could it be an early C.S.8...model C.S.8T???
I looked up the FMX series in the Police "GOLI" ("Go Look It Up") list I just seem to have. . . . . . .
The series FMX without a prefix or suffix year letter is undefined for a start date.

Quote:
I canot decipher the Census number. Combination of myopia and astigmatism.
And, a weak stamping with a lot of paint in it. Rory has it and I will ask, its a lot easier to see personally of course when you can adjust the light/viewing angle.
Quote:
Obviously given the number we can not only confirm the contract number buit, armed with that info, ask Mr David Fletcher at Bovington to look up the contract card and find the date of the contract, delivery dates and prices.
Fletch has nothing on the CS8's, we've been there before; we have the cards for the PU's though.

R.
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  #9  
Old 20-04-05, 00:48
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Default Cards

Quote:
Fletch has nothing on the CS8's, we've been there before; we have the cards for the PU's though.
He just happened, thank goodness, to have the prototype 1938 Quad cards, for the C.S.8/AWD. In case anyone wants to know what the Tank Museum hold by way of cards, to quote Mr Fletcher:

Quote:
As far as I am aware we have the largest collection of these cards to survive anywhere, including armour and transport and many going back to well before WWII. Obviously not all, but many hundreds. They include conversions and even seperate contracts for engines in some cases.Those missing are mostly plant - tractors, dozers etc - which I believe are held by the Royal Engineers Museum at Gillingham, Kent.
Certainly deliveries to Austrlia, New Zealand, India etc show up because I have seen them but not to Canada I think. Only Canadian stuff sent over here. We have the cards grouped by manufacturer (or the firm responsible for some conversion or body fit) except in the case of AFVs where they are by type of tank etc.
For B vehicles there is also a massive document known as the Consolidated Key List which, again organised by manufacturer, groups WD numbers to body types and so on. It lists contract numbers too but in some cases (I checked Morris-Commercial) there was some conflict.
We also hold two lists in numerical order, one for A and one for B vehicles and again there is some degree of contradiction
That presumably leaves the old Beverley museum records, and just possibly the files relating to contracts in Kew, under the War Office and Ministry of Supply, its successor. There seems to be a few files that might cover vehicles...I assume that these have been perused already in the past.
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  #10  
Old 20-04-05, 08:13
Richard Notton
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Default Re: Cards

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Hayward
He just happened, thank goodness, to have the prototype 1938 Quad cards, for the C.S.8/AWD.
Certainly Bovington do have extensive records but its far from exhaustive; of course their remit is armour but with some overlap. In a currently happy situation David F is genuinely interested in all the aspects and has not refused any historical MV data, but its a worry when he eventually retires and perhaps we just have appropriate grade civil servants doing it as "a job".

Quote:
That presumably leaves the old Beverley museum records, and just possibly the files relating to contracts in Kew, under the War Office and Ministry of Supply, its successor. There seems to be a few files that might cover vehicles...I assume that these have been perused already in the past.
I don't know where and in what state the ex-Beverley records are, I would like to get into these just for STAL II 894 - 20ET51.

Both the Ballards have made long visits to Kew and the IWM archives and extracted a mass of data on the MC PU especially, but not for CS8s; perhaps I can cajole them to repeat the exercise. However, as you probably know only too well, this work is extremely time consuming and expensive for a private person without the wherewithall to spend weeks of consecutive days trawling the archives.

Gaydon also can turn up some gems of factory and production data I believe, but its the usual painstaking job.

R.
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  #11  
Old 20-04-05, 09:03
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Default Army Museum

It has been suggested that the old Beverley records were handed to the Army Museum. I found some excellent records relating to Rootes' wartime production in the Museum of British Road Transport, Coventry. I believe that there are some Morris records in trhe MRC at Warwick University but I am out of touch.

In addition there are papers and photos relating to airborne MCC, CMP etc. trucks in the Airborne Forces Museum in Aldershot. Their collection is extensive and would take days to go through all those filing cabinets.
Alan Brown

Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 20-04-05 at 20:47.
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  #12  
Old 20-04-05, 20:40
Richard Notton
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Default Re: Army Museum

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Hayward
It has been suggested that the old Beverley records were handed to the Army Museum.
Yup, that's my understanding too, however, I believe they are just storing boxes and have no resource to catalogue or file the data.
Quote:
I found some excellent records relating to Rootes' wartime production in the Museum of British Road Transport, Coventry. I believe that there are some Morris records in trhe MRC at Warwick University but I am out of touch.

In addition there are papers and photos relating to airborne MCC, CMP etc. trucks in the Airborne Forces Museum in Aldershot. There collection is extensive and would take days to go through all those filing cabinets.
Alan Brown
Excellent leads, I'll pass these on, many thanks.

Harry Edwards is the Morris historian of course, but his data on the military types is limited, in many instances the few (possibly two) really interested private individuals have a greater depth of info especially on certain types.

R.
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  #13  
Old 20-04-05, 20:53
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Default MCC

See the letter in HERITAGE COMMERCIALS January 2004 if you can get hold of a copy. If not it states that Gaydon were charging for old MCC photos that apparently they claim the rights to. Hence problems with any future books on MCC vehicles. The december 2003 and January 2004 issues had several photos etc. on the MCC D 6 x 4 and a few derivatives.

Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 20-04-05 at 20:59.
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  #14  
Old 02-07-05, 16:24
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Default morris again

Quote:
Originally posted by FV623
While we're on CS8 trucks, that young Rory Ballard has just bought this. . . . . . . . .
Here's the pic R. initially posted, which I lost while splitting up the thread

H.
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  #15  
Old 03-07-05, 00:53
Richard Notton
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Default Re: morris again

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Here's the pic R. initially posted, which I lost while splitting up the thread
You're a very naughty boy, I think you should go and stick your finger in a dyke for an hour as punishment.

And, what about the other restoration piccies? Re-ground/hardened propshaft spiders, hand made UJ bushes, hand made leather axle gaiters, turned and re-bushed axle support tube, new and bespoke axle friction damper discs?

Call Birmingham 8 for R. Ballard. . . . . . :

R.
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  #16  
Old 03-07-05, 01:24
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by FV623
And, what about the other restoration piccies? Re-ground/hardened propshaft spiders, hand made UJ bushes, hand made leather axle gaiters, turned and re-bushed axle support tube, new and bespoke axle friction damper discs?
A yes, the CDSW coming slowly together after being ressurrected from an absolute wreck....

rear axles

rear axles on frame

front view of chassis

last one for now, an absolute first class nut ´n bolt restoration!
Attached Thumbnails
cdsw2.jpg   cdsw axle 7.jpg   p1010092.jpg   p1010093.jpg   p1010094.jpg  

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  #17  
Old 12-07-05, 11:42
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Default C.S.8T photo

May I ask if I could 'purchase' a copy of the MCC C.S.8T Mk III photo please for a future VINTAGE ROADSCENE issue? Any other period pre-war MCC photos are most welcome please!
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  #18  
Old 13-07-05, 09:09
Richard Notton
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Default Re: C.S.8T photo

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Hayward
May I ask if I could 'purchase' a copy of the MCC C.S.8T Mk III photo please for a future VINTAGE ROADSCENE issue? Any other period pre-war MCC photos are most welcome please!
Call Rory, 01329 833619. He has MCC photos and literature that are a two man lift. . . . . . . . . . .

Not a huge drive from West Wellow either, then of course his Ol' Man has a load of stuff on the F15 Polsten too.

R.
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  #19  
Old 13-07-05, 11:31
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Default Ta!

Contact made, and 2-way exchange to follow!

David
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  #20  
Old 31-08-05, 20:49
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Default CS8?

I am hunting for MCC 1936-7 4-wheeler photos. I came across this15-cwt photo from November 1939..is it a CS8 please?


and interesting wireless truck:

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  #21  
Old 31-08-05, 22:01
Richard Notton
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Default Re: CS8?

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Hayward
I am hunting for MCC 1936-7 4-wheeler photos. I came across this15-cwt photo from November 1939..is it a CS8 please?
Yup, 1937 (Middlesex) from the GME reg, would be 1935 with CME but then there would be early features on the truck which it appears not to have.
Quote:
and interesting wireless truck:
Yes it is, looks like a prototype with a CS9-ish front end.

We'll have to wait for whichever is the sooner:

A. Young Ballard gets up here for a look-see
or
B. He gets his computer (!!!!!!!!!) on-line.

I'd suggest A. might be the quickest.

R.
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  #22  
Old 31-08-05, 22:57
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Default Photos

I have written to Mr R Ballard asking if he has any photos of the following 1936-era WD MCC trucks:

C.2 [the dual-control driver trainer]

C.S. 10/80

C.S. 14/80

C.S. 11/30


If anyone can oblige as well, they get a free VRS mag!
The wireless truck on Salisbury Plain looks as though it either has a KHX 760 or KMX 760 rego...either September 1938 onwards or July 1939 onwards respectively.

Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 31-08-05 at 23:08.
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  #23  
Old 31-08-05, 23:30
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Default Another with Camerons + Bren

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  #24  
Old 01-09-05, 22:44
Richard Notton
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Default Re: Re: CS8?

Quote:
Originally posted by FV623
Yes it is, looks like a prototype with a CS9-ish front end.
Mr. Ballard snr has just left, he pronounces the "Wireless Truck" as indeed a CS9, but of very early vintage and without the turret or armament.

This and all CS9's have the rarity value of a Quagga, unless someone knows differently. . . . . . . . . . . . .

R.
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  #25  
Old 03-09-05, 22:32
Richard Notton
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Default Re: Re: Re: CS8?

Quote:
Originally posted by FV623
a CS9, but of very early vintage and without the turret or armament.
NO ITS NOT!!
Quote:
This and all CS9's have the rarity value of a Quagga, unless someone knows differently. . . . . . . . . . . . .
The real MC expert has viewed the image, its a CS13 (13ft wheelbase) Armoured Wireless/Command/Office body.

Rarer than Quaggas or CS9's.

R.
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  #26  
Old 05-09-05, 12:28
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Default C.S. 9?

The armoured W/T may be:

L 393105 to 393110 to Contract V3068, Lorry 30-cwt Armd. Command so not many built!!!

Is THIS a C.S.9 then? Source: BMIHT, Gaydon. I have found L 384486 to V3098 'Lorry Armd. Experimental'. Also 3810933 to 3810937 to V3246, 'Car Armd. Mk. 1'. However the photo does look different to these tired eyes than the series-production C.S.9 Armoured Cars and invite comments as to whether it is the prototype?
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Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 05-09-05 at 23:13.
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  #27  
Old 10-09-05, 14:50
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Default Bovington pre-war albums

David Fletcher has sent me some thumbnails of pre-war album photos and there are some real gems in there! There are several MCC trucks and lorries including C.S.8T G/S, and C.S.8T Cavalry Portee body and what appears to be a CDF 3-way Tipping lorry! There are also one or two more unidentifiable MCCs but two photos are captioned: 'MORRIS LORRY C.S.11/40 TIPPING' with soft cab...never heard of a C.S.11/40! and a 'MORRIS LORRY C.S. 11/30', which is the one I was after. There is also a four-canvased door MCC with very high nose, looking like a 6-cylinder engine, 4-wheeler with a 'bussle' at the back...no idea what that is.

I forgot to add that there is a shot of a MCC C.S.8T I think, with a Personnel body with canvas top very similar to that of the early CMP Personnel Carriers!

Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 10-09-05 at 19:17.
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  #28  
Old 14-12-05, 20:48
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Default Answer # 1



David Fletcher comments:

Quote:
HHX760...was a prototype armoured command vehicle on a CS11/30 chassis which served as the ‘Experimental Armoured Office’ in Headquarters 1st Tank Brigade for the 1938 season. It was a one-off rival to a hideous looking Leyland design on the SKG1 chassis. Rather than adopt the type the War Office had 15 from the CS9 order altered to a similar shape but naturally a good deal more cramped.
So, MUCH rarer than Quaggas!

Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 15-12-05 at 11:48.
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  #29  
Old 14-12-05, 20:50
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Quote:
The ‘lorry’ is the prototype for what became known as the Morris CS9 Light Armoured Car; the only real difference is on top, the production cars having a larger turret.

Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 15-12-05 at 11:49.
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  #30  
Old 15-12-05, 11:50
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Default Answer # 3

Quote:
Start with V3098; this is the HQ 1st Tank Brigade vehicle L384086 (HHX760), contract date 28.1.38 BUT date received 18.1.38 – Experimental Armoured Office Lorry CS11/30F type chassis with w/CS8 front end arrangement fitted with armoured office body. This, if it begat anything, is the forerunner of the fifteen vehicles, of random number sequence from V3068.

Now if we look at V3068 (17.8.37) it is for 99 Morris Chassis type CS9-LAC Morris-Commercial Reconnaissance Armoured Cars at £550.0.0 each 8 to be fitted with armoured office bodies (obviously changed later) These are F3543 to F3641 (HMH898 – HMH996) and on the reverse of the card it says ‘first chassis to be delivered to MEE & fitted with plywood & radiator louvres’ whatever that means.

Now the other picture you sent is shown in one of our photos bearing DMV939 which according to my records, culled from the MEE files, was F1983 described as CS Type chassis for armoured car. This is the one that begat the armoured cars on V3068.

I have two other contract cars; B8974 (8.4.1935 is for ‘experimental armoured car body for fitment to CS8T chassis’ which also went to MEE, It was L34557 (AMP987) AND V2976 (30.7.36) ‘CS8 type truck chassis if latest design fitted with Armoured Reconnaissance Car Body’ which went to MEE in September 1936. No WD or licence number is given for this but I suspect it is F1983.

The Q chassis was something else again. This was for a regular, turreted armoured car as a rival to the Guy/Humber design it has no connection at all with any other Morris type AFV

However there are others; F1682 & F1683 (CMM848 & 849) were unspecified chassis that went to the Royal Ordnance Factory in 1935 to receive hideous turreted bodies to an Army design.

I also have L35793 on my armoured list but no further details.

Unfortunately there are hundreds of Morris contract cards and they really need going through with great care; would that I had the time.

And finally there is a mysterious 6x4 (probably CDSW) that was armoured very professionally, probably by Morris and maybe for export, which Norman Painting sent me two photos of.
Thanks to David Fletcher!
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