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  #61  
Old 23-04-04, 19:42
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Default thanks

Thanks David (or Doctor now? if so congratulations!),

could it also be a VH?
I am always asking questions: could GM Priok be still building 39 types by the end of 1940?
I guess there were two possible reasons for that trcuk/chassis to be there at Priok plant:
1 it had just arrived CKD/PKD and had just been built
2 it was about to be prepared for conversion to overvalwagen by GM.

regards
Nuyt

Last edited by nuyt; 28-04-04 at 19:14.
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  #62  
Old 26-04-04, 18:28
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Default Dutch armoured cars for Brazil

On Krupp and Ford chassis, read all about it:

http://www.defesa.ufjf.br/arq/Art%2013.htm

Kind regards.
Nuyt
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  #63  
Old 26-04-04, 18:57
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Default 1939 assembly

We know that Southampton, our local plant, was assembling 1939 Models in wartime up to summer 1940...this was normal for all overseas plants in GM. You would be amazed that new models came out in June of each calendar year right up to 1969....
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  #64  
Old 26-04-04, 21:21
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Default Re: Chevrolet COE

Quote:
Originally posted by ericnuyt
Can anybody confirm this and identify the model year (1940?) or type (WE?)?
Here is a 1940 Chev
http://www.stovebolt.com/gallery/miller_dusty.htm
1939 Chev
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/search/...utos__ID/69635
Take your pick........
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  #65  
Old 26-04-04, 22:49
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Default '40?

I have looked at COE '39 and '40 parts book drawings of front end parts and am still none-the-wiser! The '40 had a wider top grille strip than the '39 and on the balance of probabilities I am going now for a '40 COE WE or WH. However a keener-eyed viewer than myself may come up with a more definitive answer!
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  #66  
Old 16-06-04, 08:41
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Default Overvalwagen KNIL

Overvalwagen (Braat)
Weight: 6 tons Speed:90 km/h
Armour: Front 20 mm, sides 12 mm, floor 4 mm
AA MG: 12,7 mm M/30 Colt-Browning (made by Bandoeng arsenal)
MG: 6,5 or 7,7 mm M/23 Vickers (Bandoeng arsenal)

KNIL Tanks Btn (Mobiele Eenheid) had 16 of which 14 was in working condition in March 1942.
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  #67  
Old 16-06-04, 20:48
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Default Hey Stellan!

Thanks for that!
Were Browning .50s built under licence by the KNIL Arsenal as well? I knew about the Vickers 7.7, but not the heavier ones. Interesting...
Greetings
Nuyt
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  #68  
Old 17-06-04, 07:20
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Default Re: Hey Stellan!

Quote:
Originally posted by ericnuyt
Were Browning .50s built under licence by the KNIL Arsenal as well? I knew about the Vickers 7.7, but not the heavier ones. Interesting...
All this happened before I was born. What I have understood by reading the 12.7 mm guns were bought from FN in Belgium. The AA sight was from Madsen. The upper part of the mount was of Vickers design and the lower constructed by Werkplaats Draagbare Wapenen (WDW) in Bandoeng, where the MGs were assembled.

The Japanese took 94 AAMGs 12,7 mm on Java and I have noticed some 50 on other Islands.

In 1940 the WDW took up production of 81 mm mortars type Stokes-Brandt and thedy could make HMG barrels in 7,7 mm, but did they have tools to make 12,7 mm barrels?

As you know the .50 Colt-Browning was a o used in Overvalwagens (OV). I have noticed that at least one OV was built by the Naval Arsenal in Soerabaja. A source (Krabbedijk) states that totally more than 100 OVs were built, the majority on Cheverolet and a few on Ford chassis.

Greetings
Stellan
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  #69  
Old 17-06-04, 14:13
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Default Overvalwagen

Are there any OV-fans?

I have spotted 72 OV:s:

SUMATRA (7) Koetaradja (2 at least), Palembang AFB (5)

BORNEO (17) Pontianak (1), Sintang (1), Singkawan AFB (1), Samarinda (2), Bandjermasin (3), Tarakan (7)

CELEBES (4) Makassar (2), Kendiri AFB (2)

AMBON (4)

TIMOR (2?) Koepang

JAVA (38) Batavia (5?), Soerakarta (1), Mobiele Eenheid/Tanks Btn (16 Braat), 6th Cav Sqn (9) and Marines Btn (7)

Are there more known?
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  #70  
Old 17-06-04, 16:53
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Default Re: overvalwagen stadswacht type

Quote:
Originally posted by ericnuyt
http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/tanks...merc/krupp.htm

Hello,

On the attached picture you can see a stadswacht overvalwagen, mistakenly called a Krupp APC on a Swedish site. There are some references that these trucks were based on Krupp chassis. This misunderstanding probably arose from the fact that two Wilton-Feijenoord armoured cars were briefly in service in the NEI in the early thirties. These were based on German chassis and were an inspiration for a German design called Krupp Gepanzerte Radfahrzeug (a 6x4 vehicle).

Kind regards,

Nuyt
Both 1936 and Krupp seems wrong. I would suggest Stadswacht Batavia 1941.
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  #71  
Old 17-06-04, 17:19
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Default Re: Maple Leaf Artillery Tractor

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Hayward
Very interesting picture. The gun towed is telling us something. It is clearly a 75 mm L/30 Krupp M/1911 gun. These were delivered with wooden wheels for horse-traction.

12 of these guns were rebuilt in 1933-34 with wheels w massive rubber bands. The gun on the picture seems to be one of these.

All these guns belonged to the 1st Field Arty Btn (A I Vd) in Malang, E Java.

But in 1938-39 another 12 guns were rebuilt but this time with pneumatic rubber tires. 1st Field Arty Btn got these guns and the others were put in the Depot.

2nd Arty Btn (A II Vd) in Tjimahi had been disbanded in 1934 but was reinstated in 1941, but had the old type of guns suited for horse-traction. Motor traction was made by adding small extra rubber wheels under the gun.

So the picture should be from 1st Arty Btn. But could it be before 1940?
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  #72  
Old 17-06-04, 17:23
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Default Re: Re: Maple Leaf Artillery Tractor

Quote:
Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Very interesting picture. The gun towed is telling us something. It is clearly a 75 mm L/30 Krupp M/1911 gun. These were delivered with wooden wheels for horse-traction.

12 of these guns were rebuilt in 1933-34 with wheels w massive rubber bands. The gun on the picture seems to be one of these.

All these guns belonged to the 1st Field Arty Btn (A I Vd) in Malang, E Java.

But in 1938-39 another 12 guns were rebuilt but this time with pneumatic rubber tires. 1st Field Arty Btn got these guns and the others were put in the Depot.

2nd Arty Btn (A II Vd) in Tjimahi had been disbanded in 1934 but was reinstated in 1941, but had the old type of guns suited for horse-traction. Motor traction was made by adding small extra rubber wheels under the gun.

So the picture should be from 1st Arty Btn. But could it be before 1940?
Sorry I was to much in a hurry,
The lower part of the gun wheels cannot be seen, so there could be those extra rubber wheels consealed. But on the other hand the gun wheels seems to be of the massive rubber type. They look too thick to be wooden wheels with iron rings.
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  #73  
Old 17-06-04, 20:41
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Quote:
A source (Krabbedijk) states that totally more than 100 OVs were built, the majority on Cheverolet and a few on Ford chassis.
Hi Stellan!
I dont know Krabbedijk. What source is that? A publication?
I have Dutch Govt/HQ documents of end january 1942 saying there were 90 overvalwagens by that time (a hundred were planned though, so Krabbedijk is not far off).


Quote:
SUMATRA (7) Koetaradja (2 at least), Palembang AFB (5)
You missed Medan (5)

Quote:
BORNEO (17) Pontianak (1), Sintang (1), Singkawan AFB (1), Samarinda (2), Bandjermasin (3), Tarakan (7)
You missed: Samaranda II AFB (2)
Bali (2), Kendari (4)
Java: Batavia=Tjilitan AFB + Kemajoran AFB=6 + Tjepoe (2).

Total close to 90

Kind regards,
Nuyt
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  #74  
Old 17-06-04, 23:25
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Default Re: replies

Quote:
Originally posted by ericnuyt
Hi Stellan!
I dont know Krabbedijk. What source is that? A publication?
I have Dutch Govt/HQ documents of end january 1942 saying there were 90 overvalwagens by that time (a hundred were planned though, so Krabbedijk is not far off).




You missed Medan (5)



You missed: Samaranda II AFB (2)
Bali (2), Kendari (4)
Java: Batavia=Tjilitan AFB + Kemajoran AFB=6 + Tjepoe (2).

Total close to 90

Kind regards,
Nuyt
Hello Nuyt,

Krabbedijk is (or was?) an ex-KNIL who wrote on the KNIL equipment in Stabelan Magazine for several years. (I have the Stabelan from nr 1 issued 31 Aug 1974 - with a few missing numbers).

(The founders of Stabelan, LtCol Kroesen and AAOI van Meel were aswell as Col Heshusius personal friends of mine).

Medan - didn´t know of but makes sense. M had a considerable Stadswacht.

2 on Bali seems OK.

By Kendari I mean K II. So 4 not 2. OK.
Samarina II - I must have written wrong. S II I know of.

The Tjilitan, Kemajoran and Tjeoe question seems difficult. Reason: How separate these fom Stadswacht Batavia?

My Father-in-law Jos Schreuder, SMI 7th Inf Btn was murdered as a POW 19th Jan 1942 at Tarakan, Borneo.

The KNIL doesn´t exist since 1950, but History lives and through History KNIL lives thanks to You Nyut and a few others. I am glad - I thought I was the only still interested in the KNIL.

I hope there will be no rain tomorrow
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  #75  
Old 18-06-04, 13:47
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Default Re: Vickers

Quote:
Originally posted by ericnuyt
The Vickers (of which only around 20 were delivered I think) are mostly seen towing Boehler 4,7cm AT guns on NEI pictures.
There was also an AA Battalion that used the same Vickers for towing Rheinmetall Flak 30 20mm AA gun, of which KNIL possessed some 30.
It has been heard that KNIL also had another type of VIckers tractor but I am not sure of this.
I think the KNIL Vickers Utility Tractors (agree they were 20) were used as training vehicles in Bandoeng as substitute for tanks until the series of 20 VCL tanks arrived.

There is a picture showing Vickers Utility Tractors towing 20 mm AA guns Rheinmetall on a parade march-past. That picture is from April 1940 when a large parade was held on Andir AFB (Bandoeng).

So I think that the training Vickers were used on that occasion just for propaganda.

As the KNIL had 30 x 47 mm Böhler AT-guns and only 20 Vickers Trucks, it was not logical to use them for towing 20 mm AA guns. For redeploying av AA gun you can use almost every type of vehicle, but to tow an AT-gun under combat conditions is someting totally different.
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  #76  
Old 18-06-04, 17:17
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Quote:
As the KNIL had 30 x 47 mm Böhler AT-guns and only 20 Vickers Trucks, it was not logical to use them for towing 20 mm AA guns. For redeploying av AA gun you can use almost every type of vehicle, but to tow an AT-gun under combat conditions is someting totally different.
KNIL by 1942 also had received part of their order for MH light tractors. Though not sure how many were delivered (max around 100- see other posts on MLU) these also seemed to have been used as tank training vehicles. They were meant as AT and AA gun tractors, so why not use them as that?
Quote:
Krabbedijk is (or was?) an ex-KNIL who wrote on the KNIL equipment in Stabelan Magazine for several years. (I have the Stabelan from nr 1 issued 31 Aug 1974 - with a few missing numbers).
Ok, than I probably read him. So far I have found little real good info on overvalwagens in Stabelan. It is now defunct as you know.
Quote:
The Tjilitan, Kemajoran and Tjeoe question seems difficult. Reason: How separate these fom Stadswacht Batavia?
I have no definite proof but I think most if not all Stadswacht overvalwagens were reallocated to regular units before the Japanese assault for lack of other afv's (such as the Medan vehicles). The Java airport vehicles were Braat AA vehicles btw.
BTW I mean both Samarinda and SamII had overvalwagens. I am not sure if Makassar by the time of fighting still had them (Nortier does not mention them)
Quote:
I thought I was the only still interested in the KNIL.
No you're not alone! And glad I am not!
NO rain today...
Nuyt
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  #77  
Old 18-06-04, 21:53
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Default Re: replies

Quote:
Originally posted by ericnuyt
I have no definite proof but I think most if not all Stadswacht overvalwagens were reallocated to regular units before the Japanese assault for lack of other afv's (such as the Medan vehicles). The Java airport vehicles were Braat AA vehicles btw.
BTW I mean both Samarinda and SamII had overvalwagens. I am not sure if Makassar by the time of fighting still had them (Nortier does not mention them)
Dear Nuyt,

How the hell did they bring OV:s to Sam II? In the middle of the jungle?

Makssar could be wrong. My notes: 4 OV:s on Celebes.

(Talking of Makassar my wife´s uncle Captain KNIL Andi Abdul Azis made rebellion against Soekarno in Makassar 1950 - failed and served 16 yrs inprisonment).

Rain: I have already experienced on my way from the pub.

But tomorrow: sunshine!

Stellan
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  #78  
Old 19-06-04, 13:28
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Default Overvalwagen - again

Quote:
Originally posted by ericnuyt
I have no definite proof but I think most if not all Stadswacht overvalwagens were reallocated to regular units before the Japanese assault for lack of other afv's (such as the Medan vehicles). The Java airport vehicles were Braat AA vehicles btw.
BTW I mean both Samarinda and SamII had overvalwagens. I am not sure if Makassar by the time of fighting still had them (Nortier does not mention them)
SUMATRA (12)
2 Koetraradja
2 Palembang I AFB
3 Palembang II AFB
5 Medan
BORNEO (19)
1 Pontiakak
1 Sintang
2 Banjermasin
1 Singkawan II AFB
2 Samarinda
2 Samarinda II AFB
3 Balikpapan
7 Tarakan
CELEBES (7)
3 Menado
0 Makassar
4 Kendiri II AFB
AMBON (7)
4 Amboina (In MG Coy)
3 Laha AFB
TIMOR (3)
2 Koepang
1 Tenaoe
JAVA (40)
16 Mobiele Eenheid
9 Cav 6
7 Mariniers Soerabaja
6 Tjilitan + Kemajoran
2 Tjepoe
BALI (2)
Total: 90

So then we have 90. It is too excact to be true?

Greetings,

Stellan
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  #79  
Old 19-06-04, 22:08
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Quote:
How the hell did they bring OV:s to Sam II? In the middle of the jungle?
Well, how did they build an airbase in the middle of a jungle?
Simple answer: the base was near a riverbank. So by boat KNIL was able to send the heavy equipment across the Mahakan river deep into Borneo: there must have been bulldozers and tractors, aircraft supply vehicles, there were a couple of Bofors guns and the overvalwagens.
After the fall of Samarinda there was a brief saga of an inland navy of small craft harrassing the invaders. They operated from near SII. You can read all about it in Nortier's Borneo volume and Ies van Bel, Vlucht in het oerwoud, written by a Dutch navy man who took part in the river guerilla.

Your overvalwagen list: I have a "dynamic" list that gets improved from time to time. It comes close to yours, but I think several re-allocations were made prior to the various enemy assaults. Roughly half of the ovw's (mostly Braats) were on Java, half in the "buitengewesten" (Braats and Stadswacht types).
I hope to be able soon to prove which Stadswacht vehicles were sent to what station.

Many greetings,
Nuyt
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  #80  
Old 20-06-04, 11:24
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Dear Nuyt,

I feel a bit ashamed that I didn´t check out how far ships could navigate the Mahakam W of Tenggarong. (I ought to know, because my wifes family lived in Samarinda for several years and they knew Cpt Monteiro).

Anyhow I have noted this for Samarinda II AFB:
CO: Mjr du Rij van Best Holle
1 Inf Coy (Cpt Janssen) (1 Plat menadonese, 1 Plat javanese kortverband, 2 Troops ("brigades") Marecaussé)

AA: 2-40 mm Bofors, 4-20 mm Rheinmetall and 3-12,7 mm Colt-Browning. A fourth 12,7 mm was in reserve but later deployed.

2 Overvalwagens.

I think I saw somewhere that three of the 12,7 mm at Sam II were on PLA-trucks. I will try to get that confirmed.

Looking at the pic of PLA-truck (Nortier, Borneo, page 157) it strikes me that the "Autoletten" were probably built on such chassies. The size looks similiar. Just put up three benches facing bakwards and you have an Autolette. Somewhere I have a pic of an Autolette - will try to find it.

An Autolette should have the capacity of carrying one Troop (1 Sgt, 2 Groups of each 1 Cpl and 6 Ptes = 15 plus driver = 16).

Greetings,

Stellan
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Old 24-06-04, 15:49
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Default Overvalwagen "Krupp type"

Hello,

I think I have solved the "1936 Krupp" type on the Swedish website.

"A Photo History of Armoured Cars in Two World Wars" by George Forty, 1984 Blandford Press, Dorset.

Page 97 shows a Stadswacht type with this text: "Krupp armoured personell carrier, 1936. These German-built APCs were used in the Dutch East Indies".

Next page 98. Text: "Improvised armoured car. One of a number of improvised armoured cars used in the Dutch East Indies, probably based on a Ford chassis. Others were based on Chrysler, GMC and Van Dorne civilian-built vehicles".

And the picture on page 98 shows a purpose-built AC with a man with KNIL bamboo-hat looking out of it. A Krupp on trials in NEI?

Anyhow I think that the texts and pictures have been mixed up by misstake.

Greetings,
Stellan
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Old 03-07-04, 15:38
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Default Mysterious KNIL Armoured Car

Here it comes. The AC that I think got confused text.

Is it a Krupp vehicle?
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  #83  
Old 03-07-04, 16:46
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Default Overvalwagens and other vehicles

I beleive this picture is from Batavia 1941 before the outbreak of war.

First row 5 motorcycles + 1 with sidecar.

Second row 5 overvalswagens type "Stadswacht" and four trucks - which type?

Third row 2 "Autoletten" (possibly one invisibel to the right of the picture) and 3 troop carriers Cheverolet.

Transportation for nine troops (x 17 men) = 1 Coy. All visible personell seems to be european - so I presume this is Stadswacht Batavia.

Stellan
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Old 03-07-04, 19:17
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Hi Stellan,
Wow, what a picture! Thanks for that!
I have never seen such a armoured car...
It vaguely has the hull form of the Stadswacht vehicles and early Sout African Armoured cars. Very interesting indeed.
Cant say if this was a Krupp. Anybody else?

About the other picture at Batavia: I agree these must be Stadswacht vehicles. But I am not sure if these are the Batavia Stadswacht´s trucks. On the other pictures of the BS there seemed to be a much larger vehicle fleet, with 12 overvalwagens, usually pictured together.
Either it is a part of it (as you say: company strenght) or these vehicles have just been delivered from the Batavia and Bandung workshops and are about to be handed over to another unit.
Who knows...

Kind regards
Nuyt
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  #85  
Old 03-07-04, 21:31
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Default Overvalwagens

I don´t really know.

But it looks like Koningsplein in Batavia (or Weltefreden or Jakarta or Jatinegara). The StW buyed their vehicles by money donated by the population. Batavia = many people, rich people = well equipped StW.

Sorerakarta = 1 overvalwagen.

We will possibly find out.
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Old 05-07-04, 15:14
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Default Stadswacht Soerabaja

Stadswacht Soerabaja. First truck reg nr L 12064 (L=Soerabaja) followed by another truck and a Braat Overvalwagen.

The ship is HrMs cruiser De Reuyter sunk in the second battle of Java sea.
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Old 05-07-04, 15:24
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Default 1941 or 1942 Models

The first two are either 1941 [more likely] or 1942 Model Chevrolets, chassis with windscreen...Defence Aid etc. as per previous discussions. Note the civilian-style front bumper...I am betting on these being US-sourced and of course assembled by General Motors Java.
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Old 05-07-04, 16:34
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Default

Well we still have not left the gate for our trip, wife is still packing.

In the pic with the motorbikes and the A/Cs, the trucks to the left are 1940 Chevrolets in my book. I cannot ID the two trucks buried behind the A/Cs on the right just yet. I agree with David on the dockside shot, I have a bit clearer one here, and I am saying 1941 as in my shot it seems pretty clear that the grilles etc. are chromium plated.

Hope to be off to Nebraska soon, maybe even today:

Bill
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  #89  
Old 05-07-04, 16:38
David_Hayward (RIP)'s Avatar
David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The New Forest, England
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Default GMCs?

Could be Bill...1939 or 1940 or could just be GMCs. I need to check the grilles but the wheels MAY be the larger GMC or Maple Leaf type. Chrome grilles indicate not 'Defence Aid' per se but sequestred civilian Chevrolet Chassis with Windscreen. Or they were 'civilian' orders that just happened to fall into the hands of the authorities...ahem!
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  #90  
Old 06-07-04, 10:17
Stellan Bojerud (RIP)'s Avatar
Stellan Bojerud (RIP) Stellan Bojerud (RIP) is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 686
Default Cheverolet trucks

Thank you David!

The photo from Soerabaja naval harbour dates pre 1st March 1942.

Greetings,

Stellan
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Last edited by Stellan Bojerud (RIP); 06-07-04 at 10:52.
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