Unit badge on Tiger tank

[m kenny]

Fairly sure the 'X' on the Tiger is the badge of Stormont-Dundas-Glengarry Highlanders. Anything to say it can't be?
It appears they captured a senior officer in one of the two TIgers they claimed that day at Magny (Aug 21,Trun)

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by m kenny

Fairly sure the 'X' on the Tiger is the badge of Stormont-Dundas-Glengarry Highlanders. Anything to say it can't be?
It appears they captured a senior officer in one of the two TIgers they claimed that day at Magny (Aug 21,Trun)

I don't believe it is the badge of the SDG Highlanders. The cross of St. Andrew is not so prominent on the cap badge as is the 'X' on the tank.

But I'm always willing to be proven wrong.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by m kenny

Fairly sure the 'X' on the Tiger is the badge of Stormont-Dundas-Glengarry Highlanders. Anything to say it can't be?

More likely a cross to denote it was knocked out/ not in working order.

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

More likely a cross to denote it was knocked out/ not in working order.

Very unlikely. Never ever seen it used on enemy tanks. You may be thinking of the 'Z' or 'W' used to denote Allied total losses.

[Ed Storey]

What is the source of the image as that information might help in determining the symbol/badge?

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

What is the source of the image as that information might help in determining the symbol/badge?

The Regimental history “Up the Glens : the Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders, 1783-1994” by W. Boss and W.J. Patterson.

The War Diary

[Ed Storey]

Ah, that makes sense. Based on the diary entry, there is a good chance that the 'badge' could very well have been painted by the Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (M.G.) as there is a cross of St. Andrew on their cap badge.

[klambie]

Sgt CJ Smithers, C Coy, 9 Pl

"During an attack in the Falaise Gap area our Pl and 8 Pl managed to get their directions confused and dug our guns in on the high side of a road overlooking an open field. Early the next morning, a German SS unit of about 2000 troops, plus three tanks, attacked the small village occupied by The Glengarrians. The enemy overran their position and the Glens retreated through our positions. Our Pl Sgt, Sgt Lorne Price, knocked out one of the tanks and bounced PIAT bombs off the other.

The third tank was headed directly at my gun position and I can still remember the sight of that 88 lowering to aim at us. We kept firing, and fortunately, the tank hulled itself on a high spot on the lane and was unable to lower its gun any further.

The 2000 German troops were not aware of us being in that position and our 8 machine guns made short work of their attack. The Falaise Pocket was closed that day so our action could have had an effect."

Lt-Col Richard M Ross, OBE, Regimental History, Operation Tallulah, p. 61

As the pincers closed on the Falaise gap near Trun, on the morning of Aug 21, Pls 10 and 11 were in position near Magny on the Trun Chambois Road. Infantry from the forward company of an infantry battalion filtered to the gun line, saying they had been run over by enemy infantry and tanks. A few minutes later, the German infantry appeared on the right flank of 10 Pl's gun line.

"Cpl AW Marshall stood off the attack with a Bren gun while the gun frontage was switched to the new direction and fire opened. At the same time, a Tiger tank appeared in front of 10 Pl's OP manned by Sgt LCC Price and Pte JC McGraw. They promptly engaged it with a PIAT, scoring two hits. The MGs fired for about five minutes and through the effort of Lieuts HB Jackson and VL Leatherdale, who rallied the disorganized infantry, the situation was restored. More than 100 prisoners were taken and the 75 killed were buried later in the day. It was considered that the breakout was a bold thrust to get German General Menny out of the trap as he was captured in the same area later in the day."


Both from "We Were There" vol. 2, Jean E Portugal

[Jakko Westerbeke]

I would be slightly skeptical that the tank mentioned in the report was actually a Tiger, though, since to a lot of Allied soldiers, any German tank was a Tiger.

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

I would be slightly skeptical that the tank mentioned in the report was actually a Tiger, though, since to a lot of Allied soldiers, any German tank was a Tiger.

Though the loss of this Tiger (by either SS 101 or SS 102) is not mentioned in any German account we have 2 photos of it with War Diary and Regimental History accounts. Its confirmed for me.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

I would be slightly skeptical that the tank mentioned in the report was actually a Tiger, though, since to a lot of Allied soldiers, any German tank was a Tiger.

Exactly, just like every anti-tank gun was an 88.

[m kenny]

[Ed Storey]

Do you know when the two photographs were taken?

[m kenny]

No Idea but it looks as if they were both taken not long apart and not long after the action. I doubt such a Tiger tucked away in a small village would see so many soldiers other than the short time the Canadians were there in August 1944.
Its not a 'new' Tiger by the way and my query is about the white X.

[Ed Storey]

So, you don't know when the photographs were taken? What is the source of the photographs? Any idea who is in the two photographs?

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

So, you don't know when the photographs were taken? What is the source of the photographs? Any idea who is in the two photographs?

a)The photo must have been taken 1944-45 as the wreck was moved to the centre of Magny some time in 1945.

b) I can only trace it back to the 1990s book

c) No Idea.

[Ed Storey]

So is it possible then that the photographs were taken when the war was over during the summer of 1945?

[Colin Alford]

In the first image I note the presence of a German reversible winter parka. My understanding is that winter clothing was intended to be issued in the fall and withdrawn from the troops in the spring. If my understanding is correct, then I believe it is very unlikely that the images were taken in August ‘44 (unlikely that German parkas were available for capture at that time). I also note the lack of weapons, personal equipment, and helmets.

Is there mention in the war diary of a trip laid-on to visit former battlefields? Ed may be onto something suggesting that the images might have been taken after the cessation of hostilities. Another possibility might be a small diversion en-route to, or from, a leave centre.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

In the first image I note the presence of a German reversible winter parka. My understanding is that winter clothing was intended to be issued in the fall and withdrawn from the troops in the spring. If my understanding is correct, then I believe it is very unlikely that the images were taken in August ‘44 (unlikely that German parkas were available for capture at that time). I also note the lack of weapons, personal equipment, and helmets.

Is there mention in the war diary of a trip laid-on to visit former battlefields? Ed may be onto something suggesting that the images might have been taken after the cessation of hostilities. Another possibility might be a small diversion en-route to, or from, a leave centre.

Yes, that is why I kept asking about the source of the two images; as the fellow with the German reversible winter parka and camera, lack of weapons and kit, the other fellow wearing the Denison Smock and that some 3rd Division Regiments returned for tours of the D-Day beaches after VE-Day, all points to the two Tiger photographs being taken in 1945. Therefore given the length of time that tank has been in situ, the marking on the front could be anything from a unit badge to some form of sign as Hanno suggested.

[m kenny]

I think capturing Unit badge is the most likely

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by m kenny

I think capturing Unit badge is the most likely

OK, so what are the details of these two photographs and how do they support your argument that the badge on the Tiger is SD&G?

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

OK, so what are the details of these two photographs and how do they support your argument that the badge on the Tiger is SD&G?

It shows that marking enemy vehicles with a unit badges was a thing. My line of thought is large X on bow/St Andrews Cross/Canadian Scottish Units.
Simple as that.

[Ed Storey]

Markings, what markings? All you have done is post two photographs, lifted from who knows where and without any explanation, in support your argument.

[David Dunlop]

Some neutral thoughts on this topic.

All three of these vehicles look like knocked out and burned to some degree items.

The first two Tiger photos are clearly the same vehicle, in the same location, and in spite of the grainy second image, these photos look like they were taken far enough apart in time that the vegetation surrounding the tank has changed. In the second photo, a black shadow seems to be located where the drivers hatch should be located, suggesting this hatch has disappeared. If you go back to the first photo, the men standing where the drivers hatch would be located appear to be posed trying to avoid a large opening in the top of the hull in that location and no open hatch is evident in either photo. However, the gunners hatch on the opposite side of the barrel seems to be in place. In the first photo one person is standing right on top of where it would be located. If the drivers hatch is indeed missing, then this Tiger probably came to a sudden, violent end and possibly caught fire.

The shape of the opening of the foliage around the Tiger seems to mirror the general outline of the Tiger, suggesting it was backed into position. If so, then a fair bit of time passed after the Tiger was in place. Dead foliage and dirt has infilled in front of the tracks quite noticably. It would take a while for Nature to take back that ground, so if this Tiger was lost in late 1944, it seems probable these two photos were not taken until the summer of 1945, or even 1946. Photos of abandoned in place German armour in France are not uncommon, even as late as 1947 in the countryside. These photos may simply be postwar tourist shots taken by troops still in Europe waiting to be demobbed after the war.

The German SP looks oddly placed, almost posed, and the only trace of tracks are directly under the right front road wheel. It appears to have a coat of Zimmermit applied, but it looks oddly discoloured, as if perhaps having been heat damaged from a vehicle fire. The same heat may have also cooked this vehicles markings.

The last photo of another Tiger also looks like a fire damaged vehicle with that odd white and grey patches over the paint. A careful look at the rear of the turret can just make out an outlined ’14’ still showing through from the burnt paint. It is also possible the rear hull plate shows extensive heat damage that has cooked the original German Army markings to the point we can still see where they were, but not what they were. This phenomenon may also apply to the front of the first Tiger. Original German markings cooked beyond recognition.


David

[m kenny]

The Magny Tiger was moved to the centre of Magny some time after its demise and it for certain was in its new position in October 1945. The Jagdpanther and Tiger pics were posted just to show how Allied Units put their badges on German vehicles and the Jagdpanther is a BLUECOAT wreck from August 1944. Its being examined by a technical team in the pic. The Tiger (114) was taken at Rauray during EPSOM June 1944. It is parked up awaiting shipment back to the UK.

[m kenny]

The most likely location of the Tiger https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@48.83...6656?entry=ttu

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Markings, what markings? All you have done is post two photographs, lifted from who knows where and without any explanation, in support your argument.

The dragon on the bow of the Jagdtiger and the Fox head on the rear of the Tiger.
I posted the original Tiger photo just to get more info on the Unit badges and not the Tiger.

Whilst I am quite happy to provide more information the tone of certain posters is troubling.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Some neutral thoughts on this topic.
In the second photo, a black shadow seems to be located where the drivers hatch should be located, suggesting this hatch has disappeared.

The hatch is open:



Don’t forget that on the Tiger I, the hatches aren’t directly above the driver and radio operator’s seats, but offset outboard some way, ending up partly over the sponsons.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by m kenny

The dragon on the bow of the Jagdtiger and the Fox head on the rear of the Tiger.
I posted the original Tiger photo just to get more info on the Unit badges and not the Tiger.

Whilst I am quite happy to provide more information the tone of certain posters is troubling.

You should be telling us what you know without having the information pried from you, so don't try 'going down the high road' by complaining about my tone. Frankly, I don't understand is this 'cat and mouse' game you are playing by keeping whatever information you purport to know from us. Your argument is that German armour left on the battlefield had unit badges painted on them. You apparently want members of this forum to help you out, but all you seem able to provide are grainy images lifted from from who knows where with little to no information on the images. In the case of the last two photographs you posted, all you did was post them with the comment 'I think capturing Unit badge is the most likely'. Here is a piece of advice, take a page out of Jakko's book, show a bit professionalism and at least take the time to circle what you are talking about.

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

You should be telling us what you know without having the information pried from you, so don't try 'going down the high road' by complaining about my tone. Frankly, I don't understand is this 'cat and mouse' game you are playing by keeping whatever information you purport to know from us. Your argument is that German armour left on the battlefield had unit badges painted on them. You apparently want members of this forum to help you out, but all you seem able to provide are grainy images lifted from from who knows where with little to no information on the images. In the case of the last two photographs you posted, all you did was post them with the comment 'I think capturing Unit badge is the most likely'. Here is a piece of advice, take a page out of Jakko's book, show a bit professionalism and at least take the time to circle what you are talking about.

I explained my reason for posting earlier. It was to ask if the 'X' could be a Unit badge.
That and nothing else.
I know all about the Tiger and its location.
There is no 'argument' that Unit badges were painted on captured vehicles as that is an established fact.

See :
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/miss...e-t103613.html
as an example where, instead of carping, everyone chips in to build up the bigger picture and no one starts complaining because they failed to notice the markings on the grainy images lifted from from who knows where with little to no information on the images I provided.

As for your advice well all I can say I need no lessons from you about my research methods:

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...13153#p2113153


https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...hills#p2048441

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...lit=churchills

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...55848#p1255848


As a parting gift another grainy image lifted from from who knows where but I will add a little detail for you. Its the the 12th SS attack on Authie on 7.6.44 actually in progress. Note the Pz IVs moving to skirt around Authie. I am working on an update of my previous post about 12th SS v The Sherbrookes at Authie to link the air recce pics of the German vehicles moving on St Contest and Buron with the newsreel footage. Perhaps it would be better received on Missing Lynx.