T16 Wheel Questions

horsa · #1 31-05-06, 05:46

Have a friend that is interested in getting a T16 but he is trying to figure out what type of wheels he wants in case he has an option. Passing on his question below since he isn't registerd on MLU yet to post but can see messages as he lurks

What month and year did the wheels change from spoked to solid wheels on a T16?

I have heard that the change occurred sometime in 1944 is this correct?

Does anyone have a 1944 T16 with original solid wheels, and what is approx date of delivery or serial number range?

Neil Ashley · #2 31-05-06, 08:40

David

Unless some one else can confirm, I have never seen a war-time picture of a T16 with the solid wheels. They are the last pattern and this would obviously sugest they arrived too late to see any war service.

The curved wheels are also less commom.

Neil Ashley · #3 31-05-06, 08:41

By war-time I mean in service in NW Europe.

Hanno Spoelstra · #4 31-05-06, 09:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
Unless some one else can confirm, I have never seen a war-time picture of a T16 with the solid wheels.

As far as in action pictures go, this seems to be confirmed by pictures gathered in the thread Wartime T16 pictures.

H.

horsa · #5 31-05-06, 15:40

Yeah, I already knew the vehicles didn't see much of the war under any configuration. There are also two patterns of the curved spokes that I know of in addition to the straight spokes.

The thing my friend is sorting out is trying to match up the correct type wheels to go with based on the hull he buys. If its very late production, he would want to stay with the disk wheels if they were correct for it even though he likes the earlier patterns better.

Figure this isn't so much an issue as trying to get all the wheels to be the same pattern for a better visual effect.

Neil Ashley · #6 02-06-06, 18:03

The Parts List may comment on the subject if some one can check.

horsa · #7 02-06-06, 18:27

I've got a parts list dated 1 APRIL 1944. It indicates the change from straight spokes to the curved type at vehicle number 1900. No reference to what date that was but it had to be before April 1944 since they document the change.

My carrier has the curved spokes but there are two different patterns (visually only different on the back). Not cleaned up yet but I'll see if I can find part numbers so we at least will know the first three official numbers.

Since the production was limited to about 13000 total vehicles over two years, I'm wondering if the solid wheels are of US production or possible Swiss-made after the war. The Swiss had a different track system in terms of the pins and width of blades. Not sure if they were simply a modification of US track or something they began producing themselves.

Figure its realted to this thread since my friend wants wheels that are correct to the vehicle he buys but also wants it to be something made during the war.

So still looking for a date that the solid wheels were introduced with the T16 and also if the Swiss ever made tracks and wheels or if they relied on surplus US made parts.

horsa · #8 02-06-06, 18:59

Just checked cleaner examples of the two types of wheels with curved spokes and they both have the same number case on them. It is D70340 which is the same format and range as other T16 Ordnance numbers but it doesn't appear in my parts list, although there are other parts with slightly higher and lower numbers in the listing.

G166UC · #9 02-06-06, 21:12

Dave,
Obviously, all of the T-16s were made during the war. They probably stopped production before the war actually ended, as they did for a lot of different vehicles. but as was noted earlier, by the time the dish wheels got into the hands of the troops, the war was over. I have seen pictures of T-16s in action with curved spoke wheels, but not very many. It would not be incorrect for a mid production vehicle to have dish wheels on it, as the military would have upgraded the vehicle as it came in for service. But most vehicles have so few actual miles on them, that in most cases the wheels are probably original to the vehicle.
The Swiss did not produce wheels or tracks for the T-16s they had. All the tracks were modified US tracks. Rod

horsa · #10 02-06-06, 21:37

Hey Rod,

Figured everything the Swiss had was from surplus but just didn't know for sure. I knew all the actual vehicles were produced during the war though.

Our group has a WWII Hetzer that came out of Switzerland about eighteen years ago. It was made by the Germans during the war but also has the dish wheels. Like a lot of vehicles, wheels are interchangeable from like types (not a Hetzer to a carrier

) so it could have been possible that the dish wheels were postwar production or originally intended for another vehicle such as a British or Canadian produced carrier.

Just haven't personally researched the subject enough to know and original photos are often without captions and assumed to be from a time they may not belong. Something along the lines of T16s at Normandy and the Marines using them in the Pacfic. Possible but not probable.

Hanno Spoelstra · #11 02-06-06, 22:30

Quote:

Originally posted by horsa
Something along the lines of T16s at Normandy and the Marines using them in the Pacfic. Possible but not probable.

Actually, these are not in the same "possible but not probable" bracket, as the former is a fact - see Picture ID challenge: T16's near Caen - while for the latter no proof whatsoever has been presented to date.

H.

alleramilitaria · #12 03-06-06, 04:19

i would like to see the hetzer wheels on the T-16. we could even crome them and add hydrolics (bling bling). would look on 6th street in austin. do i know the person in question that wants the carrier?

the morris is home!!!!!

working on the wireing and motor this weekend. should be painted by next weekend. also the OTHER suprise vehicle may be up and running by the first battle this year (the chev 350 will be fitted this next weekend) . i need a crew for it.
d.

horsa · #13 03-06-06, 04:35

Yep, you know him Dave. He has a newly established used car lot (4 jeeps) in his backyard

I'd also though about chrome for the wheels and a nice British racing green powder coated finish for the carrier. Figured it would get torn up to quick so be a waste. Might have to just settle for the spinner hub caps for the cruise up 6th Street for beer and coeds

alleramilitaria · #14 03-06-06, 05:21

4 jeeps?? so that should be about 42,000.00 worth of jeep parts

ow well the more the merrier

we now have more british vehicles than people in the club i think. we need to start the guards armored div.

G166UC · #15 04-06-06, 03:24

Hanno,
Have you been to the Museum of the Falaise gap battle? I forget the name of it exactly. Anyway, way in the back of the museum (indoors) is a small area relegated to relics found on the battlefield. Just a bunch of vehicle related parts and pieces piled up in a corner. But right at the front is the front armor section of a carrier that kind of prevents people from going back into the corner. As you might guess, it is that of a T-16 destroyed during the battle. If this is not proof of T-16s in Normandy, then I don't know what is!! Rod

alleramilitaria · #16 04-06-06, 06:17

i think that the wheels should be a small consideration for anyone purchasing a carrier right now. lets face it the hulls are going up in price here in the US. people are seeing the pros of owning a carrier and the increas price is reflecting that. the wheels are out there and pop up for people to get. in adition to that its just a matter of time till someone starts rerubbering the stripped wheels. i guess it boils down to either purchas a hull with the best set of wheels you can or get a museum pice fully kitted out (at a fully kitted out price). i can see good running carriers hitting $20,000+ in just a few years. look at CCKWs 10 years ago they were 2-5000 for a good SWB version. now the same truck is sold for 16,000.00 or more!!!! and who would have ever thought of a MB going for $10,000 to 20,000 just 10 years ago. the price for all the WWII vehicles out there is only going one way. UP

Hanno Spoelstra · #17 04-06-06, 08:09

David, in an effort to clean up your posting (by deleting the .bmp file), I inadvertedly deleted it

Could you please repost? Sorry for the inconvenience!

Hanno
MLU forum moderator

Quote:

Originally posted by horsa

Easier way to see the two photos....

Like the solid wheels on the Bren Carrier

horsa · #18 04-06-06, 15:57

OK, this will ramble a bit as I don't remember everyting I posted before...The photos of the Bren Carrier and T16 with the weird paint jobs are out near Singapore. My other post was just a series of comments related to not always being able to trust things found at a muesum or historical site as being genuine.

The Bren Carrier shown has solid road wheels which are most likley from a T16 and its one of the flame thrower models. Likely just vehicles purchased for their collection and never used in the fighting over there.

Back on the muesum reference, in particular to the Normandy museum with "proof" of T16 use because they had a battle damaged one inside....

The battle damaged artillery pieces at the British airborne muesum at Arnhem are not original to the grounds and were donated after they established the memorial. Most people would assume they were last stand pieces from the fighting there.

The Pegasus Memorial at Ranville and the Merville Battery musuem are the same thing with 90+ percent of thier items being donated decades after the war. Some of the relics are genuine to the area while others are examples of like items.

I have no doubt that T16s landed at Normandy during the war and drove down the roads on their way to the fighting further inland after the breakout was completed. All armor had to cross the channel and then drive to its next destination. For the real proof, we need to get into the IWM and Canadian archives and find the series of photos from the other "Normandy T16" message thread.

For all we know, the photos are from a film or documentary similar to "Theirs is the Glory" which was made on location at Arnhem and used real soldiers and equipment but it was a year later. I could pull a film cell showing a British PIAT used to destroy a Tiger but the beast was already dead. Caption though would be accurate as a Tiger being taken out during the fighting at Arnhem.

Hanno Spoelstra · #19 04-06-06, 21:15

Quote:

Originally posted by horsa
My other post was just a series of comments related to not always being able to trust things found at a muesum or historical site as being genuine.
(...)
The battle damaged artillery pieces at the British airborne muesum at Arnhem are not original to the grounds and were donated after they established the memorial. Most people would assume they were last stand pieces from the fighting there.

Hi David, I can't comment on the T16 at Singapore (Did not know they had one on display! In which museum is it?) nor the battle damaged remains of one at the Normandy museum Rod mentioned. The crucial word here is "provenance". If the museum people have done their job they have assured where the artifacts on display came from and should be able to inform any visitor who wants to know more about them.

Now, the fact is that the 17-pdr AT guns at Arnhem are genuine battle relics, this has been proved by a group of enthusiasts. However, the Sherman M4A4 at the same Airborne Museum at Oosterbeek is not a genuine battle relic, and where id did come from remains an enigma to this day. Pictures taken immediately after WW2 show the census number T-288627 and the name "Argyll Roger". Since the museum could not come up with provenance they simply painted it up as "Argyle" which was a Canadian Sherman VC Firefly

Quote:

I have no doubt that T16s landed at Normandy during the war and drove down the roads on their way to the fighting further inland after the breakout was completed. All armor had to cross the channel and then drive to its next destination. For the real proof, we need to get into the IWM and Canadian archives and find the series of photos from the other "Normandy T16" message thread.

For all we know, the photos are from a film or documentary similar to "Theirs is the Glory" which was made on location at Arnhem and used real soldiers and equipment but it was a year later.

The claim that T16s were used in the Normandy fighting is not only based on that photo, also on other facts such as 448 having been received by the Canadian Army in the UK by April 1944 (CMHQ Report no.141). And yes, it will take further digging to unearth enough pictures and references to prove it beyond any doubt.

H.

horsa · #20 04-06-06, 21:37

Yep, I've got a copy of report 141 which shows Canadian establishment of 348 T16s with 266 being on hand and a deficiency of 82.

Not trying to discount anything but also didn't want to jump to conclusions either. I'm down here digging for proof and answers with everyone else

One issue the report covers is the role of 4.2" mortar carrier and that 100 were so modified for use by the end of April 1944. Plenty of time to load them onto transport from England to France if the modifications were done in England but no time to get into action on D-Day if the modifications were done in Canada. Same report mentions problems and solutions being worked out in a memorandum dated 4 MAY 1945 and this would be a good document to try and locate since it might indicate reports of field trials occuring prior to that.

Maybe we can get Clive to make sure the Carrier WoW has a big section on Canadian T16s before it is released. These books have lots of details and I'm sure there is sufficient market with all the variations.

Barry Read · #21 04-06-06, 22:13

The pictures of that carrier in Singapore I don't understand!!!

It has T16 wheels, The front is that of a T16 and yet it resembles a wasp carrier!!!
Please explain???

Barry

horsa · #22 04-06-06, 22:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry Read
The pictures of that carrier in Singapore I don't understand!!!

It has T16 wheels, The front is that of a T16 and yet it resembles a wasp carrier!!!

Make due with what you have I guess. Part of why I was wondering if the dish wheels might have actually been part of another allied or axis vehicle and were adopted at the end of the war for use on the T16.

The photos are also of two different vehicles that happen to have the same paint job. The T16 has a solid spare and the Wasp has a spoke spare and solid road wheels.

Swiss never had the T16 shown as it still has the brackets for the water kit out on the front edges where the turn signals were later added.

Nice parking pads though, don't you think? Keeps the tracks off the ground, has built in chaulks at each end and you can drive straight onto a trailer that is backed up to them.

Hanno Spoelstra · #23 05-06-06, 23:31

Quote:

Originally posted by horsa
Not trying to discount anything but also didn't want to jump to conclusions either. I'm down here digging for proof and answers with everyone else

Good!

Terry Johns came up with a pic of a T16 of the South Saskatchewan Regiment at Fleury-sur-Orne, Normandy, on 20 July 1944. According to this history they did not land in Normandy until 8 July as a unit of the 6th Infantry Brigade, 2nd Canadian Infantry Division. So we have proof of T16s landing one month after D-Day, now we keep digging for any ones showing up earlier.

Need an entrenching tool?

H.

Linked from Wartime T16 pictures

alleramilitaria · #24 06-06-06, 21:13

it would make sence about nor needing the 4.2in mortar on the beaches for at least a week. if i was the planner i would hold back anything with about the 4.2in range and fill the ships with infantry, tanks, fuel and ammo. durring that first week or two the naval artillery would have been able to cover most of the area with the army artillery hitting farther inland. its just the role of that sized mortar was already being filled. just my opinion

mudeng · #25 08-06-06, 12:08

The sources I have are Making Tracks and Carrier profile AFV 14.

I quote......

Three types of roadwheel were were used; up to the first 1900 vehicles the (spokes) were straight, after this they were curved. Solid disc wheels were also used

from AFV 14

2625 vehicles supplied in 1944 and 604 the following year.

also;

A few T16's were used operationally in SEAC at the end of the war.

Hope this helps.

george.