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  #1  
Old 06-03-03, 17:10
R Mark Davies R Mark Davies is offline
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Default Ram Badger (with Wasp Mk II Flame Thrower)

Hi Gents,

I'm interested to know more about the Ram Badger flamethrower carrier. Information on these vehicles seems to be rather scanty, but the only things I know about them were that they were used by the Canadians for the first time in Operation Veritable (the Reichswald), the Mk I was turretless with the Wasp II flame kit in the hull and the Mk II had the old MG mini-turret mounted on the top, with the flamethrower replacing the MG.

Can anyone add anything to this?

What units used them?
Any ideas on sub-unit organisation?
Were they part of 79th Armoured Division? 1st CACR perhaps?
Were the Mk IIs ever used in action?

Cheers,

Mark
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  #2  
Old 06-03-03, 17:55
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Post Re: Badgers

Mark;

I have info on their use by Cdn Forces in 1945, will post shortly.
I've been doing research on an officer who commanded a troop.

Cheers
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Last edited by Mark W. Tonner; 06-03-03 at 19:21.
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  #3  
Old 06-03-03, 19:23
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Post Re: Badgers

Mark;

It's not much, but this is what I have:

1x Troop (4x Badgers), Headquarters Squadron, HQ 4th Cdn Armd Bde, 4th Cdn Armd Div, Dates: unknown

1x Troop (4x Badgers), Headquarters Squadron, HQ 5th Cdn Armd Bde, 5th Cdn Armd Div, Dates: From Apr. 1945

Markings:

AoS - white 50 on Red

Fmn Sign used: either 4th or 5th Cdn Armd Div, depending on which Armd Bde.

Like I said, it's not much, the attached is a Badger from the HQ 5th Cdn Armd Bde Troop.

Cheers

Mark;

From a reply I posted on the Old MLU Forum in Jan 2003:

Headquarters, 5th Canadian Armoured Brigade, 5th Canadian Armoured Division, had a Troop of them, Holland, April-May 1945, commanded for a time, by Lt. W.L. McCollum, C.A.C.

Also, Headquarters, 4th Canadian Armoured Brigade, 4th Canadian Armoured Division, had a Troop, but I'm not sure of the date they started using them, but I know the Troop was in existence, in 1945.

Hope this helps.

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Last edited by Mark W. Tonner; 06-03-03 at 19:42.
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  #4  
Old 06-03-03, 21:24
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Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default Re: Ram Badgers

Quote:
Originally posted by R Mark Davies
...the Mk I was turretless with the Wasp II flame kit in the hull and the Mk II had the old MG mini-turret mounted on the top, with the flamethrower replacing the MG.
Mark,

I agree there seems to be little written about them (that we've managed to uncover so far), but I'm really wondering about your description of the Mk.II... if it's the same flame unit as in the Wasp (or Crocodile) there's virtually no way it would fit into that wee MG cupola. There's barely enough room for a Browning 1919A4 as it is, and the operator of either HAS to have his head right up beside the equipment in order to aim through his protectoscope. Have you seen any pictures of this flame installation?

Geoff
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  #5  
Old 06-03-03, 21:43
R Mark Davies R Mark Davies is offline
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Hi Geoff,

No, just a text description, which sounds rather dodgy to me - particularly now you've described the turret so well. The photo posted by Mark, with the turret on top as a commander's cupola and the flame unit in front looks far more likely.

Thanks both,

Mark
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  #6  
Old 06-03-03, 23:33
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Post Re: Flame system

Mark & Geoff;

From what information I've gathered on the Badger, which isn't much, the flame system itself was the same as the one installed or used in the Wasp Universal Carrier. I've attached a diagram.

This same system was installed in the sample of the Badger I posted earlier.

Basic Operation:

An 80 gallon tank (A) of fras (jellied petroleum) was connected by hose to a projector (B) in which the fuel was retained under pressure. When the trigger (C) was pressed, nitrogen gas under pressure (D) forces fras from the projector. It was ignitied by a gasoline jet below the projector and a spark which functioned before the fras jet was fully formed.

Was normally fired in single short shots of flame, but could be lengthend or fired in a stream of flame.

I can't seem to find my notes on the Crocodile at the moment, but if memory serves me correctly, the system in them operated more or less the same, except that the Crocodile had a trailer which contained the flaming liquid instead of an internal tank, which the Badger had, as per the system in the diagram.

Hope this helps Guys.

Cheers
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  #7  
Old 06-03-03, 23:44
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Post Re: Flame system 2

Hi Guys;

Just to give you an idea of the what the flame gunner's position in the Badger might look like. The 18 points to the actual flame gun.

The attached is of the flame gunner's position in the Crocodile.

Cheers
Attached Thumbnails
wasp 2.jpg  
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  #8  
Old 07-03-03, 03:02
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Default Badger info

The flame gun is the same as mounted in the Wasp, except it was rotated upside down to fit in a milled bow MG opening. Late cast hull fronts ONLY.

The old Ram MG cupola was only mounted on some of the Badgers. The Lake Sups took theirs into action the first time with no covers, and 36 conversion sets were made and shipped over in 45. Took some time to get to the units concerned, as they sat in depots.
This was not a big concern it seems though, and certainly the Lake Sups didn't care much. They state that a cover was a nice idea, but not imperative at the time they were using them.

I have tons more info, but would have to dig for it right now.

Cheers
Don
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  #9  
Old 07-03-03, 03:11
R Mark Davies R Mark Davies is offline
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Default Lake Sups as well?

Thanks Don, this certainly is getting interesting - and opening up a lot of new avenues. Do you think the Lake Superiors' Badgers were their own, or did they belong to the brigade, being attached for that mission? I wonder how many other regiments had their own troop of Badgers?

Cheers,

Mark
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  #10  
Old 07-03-03, 03:34
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Steve Guthrie Steve Guthrie is offline
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Default Badgers

Hi there

The 1st Hussars regimental history relates they had a few Ram Badgers on strength, which they referred to as Ram Cougars (!)

'The more ya learn, the less ya know'

Steve
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  #11  
Old 07-03-03, 19:50
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Default

The War Diary of The Fort Garry Horse mentions them as Cougars as well. There are only two entries but they appear to have been integral to the unit. At least one was modified with the turret opening cover and cupola.

"24/1/45 Clear and very cold, Sqn’s practicing for cross country run, The flame thrower troop went to a demonstration held at 27 C.A.R. M.R. E 711538 map sheet HOLLAND sheet 5 1/100,000."

"8/2/45 Moderately clear but raining this evening. C. Sqn got the M.O.’s needle today. Mr. Brumwell, Tp. Ldr. Flame throwers, is busy getting one of the Cougars fitted with plate-covering, also installing a cupola and making other improvements. This is just a trial Cougar and is the only in the Bde. being fitted this way at present."

The Monthly Vehicle summary for Sept 1945 listed the following:

RAM carrier CT159814, CT159873, CT159882

Could these have bee the Cougar/Badgers ?

Gord Crossley
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  #12  
Old 07-03-03, 21:24
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Default Official photo of a Crocodile

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/.../crocodile.jpg

This a copy of my newly acquired Master print of a Vauxhall-built A22 Churchill Crocodile. The fuel was Napalm which is from memory Naptha...the trailer weighed 6 tons and had five Nitrogen tanks.
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  #13  
Old 08-03-03, 02:00
R Mark Davies R Mark Davies is offline
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Default Introduction date?

Hi Gord,

Very interesting post, there mate - two things come out of this - firstly, the date given predates Operation Veritable by about a month (Op Veritable was previously my only reference to their first use) and secondly, it clearly shows that there was a programme of upgrading the open-topped Badgers/Cougars.

Thanks a lot!

Mark
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  #14  
Old 08-03-03, 04:13
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Don Dingwall Don Dingwall is offline
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Default Not napalm

The fuel used in temperate climes was called FTF (Flame Thrower Fuel) No. 1.

I'll post some more complete Badger/flame warfare info when I get more time.


Cheers
Don
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  #15  
Old 08-03-03, 18:52
Snowtractor Snowtractor is offline
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Default Another possible avenue of research...

... would be German, if they captured any badgers. Could there be any reports or pics of the vehicle in their archives? Any German researchers up to a challenge?
Sean
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  #16  
Old 08-03-03, 22:09
Don Dingwall's Avatar
Don Dingwall Don Dingwall is offline
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Default No, not really

No Badgers were lost or captured.

Don
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  #17  
Old 27-01-20, 23:13
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Default Ram Badger flame-thrower passing through Putten

Using this thread and other sources I made a short write-up for a Keep Them Rolling magazine. One of the upcoming events will pass through Putten, so they wanted to publish this iconic photo:


"A Ram Badger flame-thrower of the Badger Troop, Headquarters, 5th Canadian Armoured Brigade. This was one of four Ram Badgers in this Troop. It was commanded by Lt. W.L. McCollum (C.A.C.) from 5 to 19 April 1945. Lt. McCollum can be seen in the top hatch while his Badger was photographed when passing through Putten, The Netherlands, on 18 April 1945.
This rare picture of a Ram Badger in action was taken during “Operation Cleanser”. During this Operation the First Canadian Corps would make a quick thrust north to the IJsselmeer. The 5th Canadian Amoured Brigade used their Badger Troop to support its 2nd, 5th and 9th Armoured Regiments.
Part of this operation was an attack on Voorthuizen by the 9th Armoured Regiment (The British Columbia Dragoons) on 16 April. During the early hours of the 17th, elements of the German 6th Parachute Division, tried to escape westward through Voorthuizen. They were beaten back with heavy casualties, the Dragoon’s tanks being ably assisted by a Ram Badger flame-thrower of the Badger Troop.
On the morning of the 18th German opposition ended, which was holding open a corridor along the IJsselmeer's southern shore. The 5th Armoured Regiment (8th Princess Louise's (New Brunswick) Hussars), assisted by the Westminsters and the Dutch Resistance, quickly penetrated to the centre of Putten, while their reconnaissance troop reached the IJsselmeer at 10:35 a.m. "


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Photo source: Canada. Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-131031
Link to source: http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/ourl/...3Apam&lang=eng


Map source: Colonel C.P. Stacey; The Victory Campaign Volume III: The Victory Campaign The Operations in North-West Europe, 1944-1945 (Ottawa, 1960). Chapter XXI: The 1st Corps in the Western Netherlands 1-22 April 1945
Link to source: https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/...ictory-21.html
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  #18  
Old 10-02-21, 13:19
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default

Some rare footage of the Ram Badger:

Quote:
The Battle for Kapelsche Veer, The Netherlands, in the winter of 1944-1945 was unnecessary and costly.
We share this footage here as it shows rare footage of a Ram Badger flamethrower in action:

https://youtu.be/T0GY4OJkMWU?t=165

And one (partial, though equally rare) picture:

Quote:
Soldiers of the Lake Superior Regiment (motor) during World War II standing in front of a Ram Badger Flame Thrower tank:

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Source: https://www.facebook.com/shermanregi...05427779536194

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  #19  
Old 22-02-21, 00:43
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Default Churchill Crocodile?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark w. Tonner View Post
just to give you an idea of the what the flame gunner's position in the badger might look like. The 18 points to the actual flame gun.

The attached is of the flame gunner's position in the crocodile.
Nigel Watson got these photos when he was looking up Wasp Carriers for his books, but discovered they weren't Carrier items.

I reckon they are Churchill Crocodile.

Who knows more?

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  #20  
Old 22-02-21, 00:52
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Default

Yes, I am certain that those photos are in a Churchill but they might be a prototype installation rather than the production version. I don't know.

David
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