I.D. Plates

[Lynn Eades]

I thought i'd start a thread to show the I.D. plates of the various carrier models. So if anyone can post any variation, that would be great.

[Lynn Eades]

Hopefully this time. Can Richard or Nigel explain what the "L" stands for on this rather rare and historic plate. Note that the "TL" number is stamped into the top left of the plate.

[Lynn Eades]

YES!!! .....Thanks Bruce!..... and Geoff ..(of course!)

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

But I didn't do a thing. Geoff must have beat me to it. I would have though....

[Kirk Armitage]

One of my carriers has a brass data plate on the rht fender,it reads
FORD MOTOR COMPANY of CANADA ltd.
manufactured 3 1941 N.C.D Broadarrow with 5 below

Ford Serial no. TL13F The diff tubes still have the saddles for truck application and it has the saw tooth track adjusters up front.
The cut armor still has 41 -1 -693 on both sides. The late Bill Gregg had a carrier plate which read 6 1941 #1806.
Can anybody explain # TL13F ? I'll post a pic when I figure out how to.
Thanks Kirk

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Lynn Eades
Hopefully this time. Can Richard or Nigel explain what the "L" stands for on this rather rare and historic plate. Note that the "TL" number is stamped into the top left of the plate.

Hi Lynn,

I assume this is directed at me? Nigel may be more qualified to answer. It seems NZ had 6 Mk1 and Mk2 carriers delivered before the War and one crew fitted theirs with a Lance. If the "(L)" was not cast on to the plate, I would say this was the Lance carrier . To be honest, I do not know, all my manuals are for later Marks (wartime period). The TL number on the top of the plate is most probably the part number of the plate as most of the parts on these carriers have the TL prefix to their number.

Not much else I can say, other than it is pleasing to find such a nice example of ID plate still intact.

Richard

[Lynn Eades]

Richard, I am assuming a few things here, and the first one is that the "TL" number TL11848 (Tank Light) is a number issued in " Mother England". Just as theCanadian carriers were prefixed "CTL" (Canadian Tank Light) I would have thought this number to be the War Department number but the plate allready clearly shows a 4 digit war dept. number ( T2690) You may well be correct in that it may be the part number for the plate. When some other pictures of plates are posted, they will help to solve these questions.
With regard to the "L",it is cast onto the plate. I would have to assume, that all six of the batch carried a similar plate with the "L" on them.
The reason why I asked is that the New Zealand built carriers had an "L" on their I.D.plates in the same manner and I assumed (again)that it designated "Local (pattern)". Having now seen this plate, I realize that it does not.
Can anybody shed any light on these questions?
Do Canadian I.D. plates have a part number on them?
This is the (Bren) carrier on which the plate resides.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Not much else I can say, other than it is pleasing to find such a nice example of ID plate still intact.

Originally posted by Lynn Eades
This is the (Bren) carrier on which the plate resides.

Much more than just the plate is still intact! The Carrier is restored and still seen on display. It is one of two of the original 6 still surviving, and dare I say it, in better condition than the other one which is in the NZ Army Museum!

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Lynn Eades

The reason why I asked is that the New Zealand built carriers had an "L" on their I.D.plates in the same manner and I assumed (again)that it designated "Local (pattern)". Having now seen this plate, I realize that it does not.
Can anybody shed any light on these questions?

I've not seen an "L" on NZ carrier plates, Lynn, unless you mean as part of the LP2A name?

[Tony Smith]

An Australian LP1 plate:

[Tony Smith]

An early Aust LP2A plate:

[Tony Smith]

A late Aust LP2A plate:

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Lynn Eades
Richard, I am assuming a few things here, and the first one is that the "TL" number TL11848 (Tank Light) is a number issued in " Mother England". Just as theCanadian carriers were prefixed "CTL" (Canadian Tank Light) I would have thought this number to be the War Department number but the plate allready clearly shows a 4 digit war dept. number ( T2690) You may well be correct in that it may be the part number for the plate. When some other pictures of plates are posted, they will help to solve these questions.
With regard to the "L",it is cast onto the plate. I would have to assume, that all six of the batch carried a similar plate with the "L" on them.

Lynn,

I recently worked on a Vickers Light Tank and all the parts, even some bolts, were marked with numbers prefixed "TL", so I am sure that it is only the part number of the ID plate. As for the (L), it would not be "Local" as that was only used once Aus and NZ started producing their versions. The only thing I can think of is Light or Lightweight, is there any difference between this one and those produced for the UK?

Richard

[Lynn Eades]

I refer to the LP1 I.D.plate which is exactly the same with reference to the nomenclature Carrier Bren No2 Mk1 lLl. etc. and of course they were manufactured by the New Zealand Railway workshops (Huttshops) in the Hutt valley Wellington.
I Have a casting copy of an original, but like all my Stuff, it is safely buried in the bowels of a shipping container.
Thanks Tony for posting all those pictures,of plates and for putting up the current picture of Bruces Bren.
Also thanks to you Richard. I doubt if there was any difference in the carriers sent from the std British Brens. Maybe they were produced as a variant fitted with mounts for a Lewis gun? Who Knows?

[Nigel Watson]

Sorry guys, missed this thread completely, thanks for the nudge Lynn!

I'm not sure if the assumption that TL or CTL refers to Tank Light. As already mentioned TL and CTL appear on most carrier parts and appear to be just a part no. listing. I can't find my reference just now but I think T stands for Tank which included carriers. The same way that F was for armoured cars, S was for self-propelled guns and D was for the early Dragons.

As far as the L you mentioned Lynn, sorry no answer for that yet! I have drawings which have this on it as well so it must have some significance.

The Bren Carrier ID Plate does bear a difference to the documentation and that is the order for these Bren Carriers made by Thornycroft was completed on 10th April 1938 with numbers T2689-2694 going to NZ. This was Contract No. T3810. So!

Richard you mention that NZ had 6 Mk1 and 6 Mk2 Bren Carriers delivered before the war. I can only find 6 Bren No.2 Mk1, the ones mentioned above, in the SO Books. Do you have their T numbers, or the reference?


Nigel

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Nigel Watson
Richard you mention that NZ had 6 Mk1 and 6 Mk2 Bren Carriers delivered before the war. I can only find 6 Bren No.2 Mk1, the ones mentioned above, in the SO Books. Do you have their T numbers, or the reference?

Nigel,

I cannot remember the source, but it read 6 Mk1 and Mk2 carriers, which I read to be 6 in total, it did seem odd at the time to send two marks out, but I can now see the reference made a mistake and it should have been No.2 Mk.1

Sorry about that

Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's the manufacturing plate on LP2A with s/n 1499:


Linked from Australian Local Pattern Carriers

H.

[Nigel Watson]

Phew, had me worried there Richard. Thought I was having to go through all my research papers to find 6 more carriers!!
You mentioned a Light Tank, did it have an ID Plate?

Nigel

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Nigel,

I cannot remember the source, but it read 6 Mk1 and Mk2 carriers, which I read to be 6 in total, it did seem odd at the time to send two marks out, but I can now see the reference made a mistake and it should have been No.2 Mk.1

Sorry about that

Richard

[Lynn Eades]

6 only No2 Mk1's, I believe.
Thanks for your input. Would love to here what that"L" is for.
Cheers,
Lynn.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Nigel Watson

You mentioned a Light Tank, did it have an ID Plate?

Nigel,

No.......but another one from the same batch of 10 consequetive serial numbers, does and it is on display at Duxford. The one I mentioned was actually identified by its engine number and a number seen on the turret.

Richard

[Lynn Eades]

In light of Hendrik asking about his ID plate, I thought I'd bring this thread back from the archives. Maybe we can get a few more added to the list,and maybe someone might have an answer about the "L" on the plates.

[Ian Pullen]

Tony, you mention about an LP1 still on display and in better nick than the one from NZ. That being one of the six left.
Do you have any pictures / info one that carrier as I am currently knee deep in an LP1 resto and any additional pictures / info is always handy.

CHEERS IAN

[Lynn Eades]

The 6 carriers were English Brens from which the 40 New Zealand "Carrier Bren No2 Mk1 L.P.(1)" were patterned, local mods excepted. There are no complete examples left (to my knowledge) Our LP1's had steering wheels, hydraulic brakes,(larger ) Ford commercial instruments, English track, and a mild steel hull see picture. Photo credit goes to Murray Clarke, who rebuilt the Waiouru Army museums English bren.

[Ian Pullen]

Thanks Lynn

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Ian Pullen
Tony, you mention about an LP1 still on display and in better nick than the one from NZ. That being one of the six left.

CHEERS IAN

Yeah, Ian, Lynn has cleared up the misunderstanding for you. I was describing an English No2 Mk1 carrier in private ownership in NZ being in better nick than an NZ Army Museum No2 Mk1, and these two carriers are the sole survivors of the original six sent out to NZ as samples for setting up the Kiwi carrier program. Those 6 carriers were the sisters of the ones sent to Aust, from which the Aust LP1 was largely copied. That explains why the pic appears similar to an LP1.

[Ian Pullen]

Definately a bit of a coincidence as there are about six LP1 Carriers left in Aust. Two are restored, one is original, and the others, well........ Let's just say, I have enough bits to put one together. It's at the primer stage and the running gear is still a work in progress. I am however, chasing a diff for an LP1 if anyone knows of one lying around not doing anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Ian Pullen
Definately a bit of a coincidence as there are about six LP1 Carriers left in Aust.

Bit of a head count in the lead-up to "Year of the Carrier" positively located 8. That's just the ones we know about and doesn't include those hidden in barns, blackberry bushes, "Secret Collections", etc...

[Lynn Eades]

Ian, How about posting a few photos of what you have. I'd be interested to see the steering lay out, Your dash panel (instrument cluster0, and where its installed. Did they have hydraulic brakes?
I have the remains of a N.Z. LP1 hull, and it is my a goal to rebuild it one day. I have seen the remains of another hull( both have had the tops cut off them) They are the only two that remain, that I know of. Love to hear about your carrier.
Cheers.
Lynn.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Lynn Eades
I'd be interested to see the steering lay out, Your dash panel (instrument cluster0, and where its installed.
Cheers.
Lynn.

A partly restored LP1, showing the tiller steering levers connected to 2 master cylinders, and the location of the instrument cluster (1938-39 Ford truck):

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Lynn Eades
I'd be interested to see ....... Did they have hydraulic brakes?
Cheers.
Lynn.

Hydraulic Brake/Steering slave cylinders: