Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mrs Vampire]

I am a little aware of the Munsell system. My understanding is you have to purchase the system and most paint makers dont use it.

The info on the AWM site is a recent addition ( last three months ) I am unsure why they chose that way of describing the paint rather than get someone with a spectro in and make the readings available. In my opinion a spectro is a far more accurate and universal way of managing paint colours.

I am not so sure it would be much use to a paint manafacturer or someone mixing up a shade for you.

The kind of information most companies use is spectrograph with readings like that below for "warm sand" from the Australian Standard Jan 1943

[Jacques Reed]

Hi Gina,

Thanks for that info.

I looked at the Munsell Website and they do offer individual colour control chips. Hate to think what they may charge for the service though.
I note some paint companies in the US offer colour matching to Munsell numbers. Not much good for Australian customers however.

It is a bit of a moot point if the colour info at the AWM was just an archivist best guess based on a visual comparison. Munsell system has been around for a century so had hoped that info was from a WW2 source.

Don't think I will gamble on someone else's interpretation just the same in light of your info.

All anyone really wants is a paint chip based on the relevant WW2 standard that can be trusted to be accurate and can be taken to any half-decent paint supplier for a good match. Maybe not a perfect system but a practical one.
All other interpretations from NOS parts, old cans of paint, protected panels etc. are just that- interpretations. They may be spot on, a bit off, or way off so there is no guarantee they are the same as the standard that would have been sent to the paint manufacturers in WW2.

25 years later and I am still waiting so will most likely redo my vehicle in my KG-J "interpretation". Maybe it won't be 100% correct but it will be closer than the current ADF Olive Drab colour it is painted.

Cheers,

[Mrs Vampire]

Jaques my source is an original copy of the Australian standard

More on Munsel

It is a system used "back in the day" according to my paint technologist.

It works on the idea of a sphere containing all the coloure . Imagine holding a circle in fromt of you blue on one side red on the other greenat the botom and orange at the top . coming out of the page is lighter and going into the page is darker.
Munsdel takes slices of the sphere and produces a sample of each colour on the slice.
Clearly there is an infinity of colours so Munsel goes in incremental steps. To have a realy fine series of colours to compare with they produced an incredibly thick book which was likewise incredibly expensive.
There was a kind of cheap way of using it . That was to purchase a very broad set of basic colours and work out which "page" your colour was on and purchase that page.

This was pre spectro technology.

I think the AWM have put those colours up because they spent a swag on the Munsel system and want to keep using it. The Spectro gives the colour to an accuracy of several decimal places. Muncel is kind of whole intergers.

[Mrs Vampire]

from the Australian Standard. The paint Chips I produce will be compared to the Canbera standard set.

The book is far to fragile to scan beyond this...

[Jacques Reed]

Hi Gina,

Will look forward to your reproduction of the colour chips. Will be glad to help with any costs involved.

Yes, from my reading Munsell is a bit archaic system but theoretically can cover an infinite range of colours by using decimal places in the description.

I just stumbled on this American website with the AWM color KG -J color chip as its Munsell equivalent.

As it is far from a standard colour somebody must have wanted it!


http://www.myperfectcolor.com/en/col...unsell-7.5y-42

Cheers,

[Mike Cecil]

The Munsell values were assigned by a Senior Curator only recently. As a consequence of this discussion, the record is to be amended to make that fact more obvious. The amended record should be 'live' in a few days.

The Munsell system is a handy, easily portable and quick system that can be used in the office and throughout the storage areas, whereas it's possibly a bit difficult to get a tank or other large piece of equipment under a spectrograph, and chipping a piece of paint off an object doesn't go over well with conservators! I'm told that thus far, they (and the feedback from the public, mostly modelers) have found the results immensely useful.

Also, for potentially thousands of objects, you pay only once for the Munsell book, not for each and every analysis as you would using a 'spectro'.

I suppose its a case of 'horses for courses'.

Mike

[Mike Kelly]

I have mentioned this before, a good prospect for finding matt paint is modern external house paint , it is usually water based and it's freely available in hardware stores .

Haymes make a matt external house paint that may be of use for that authentic patina look on a military vehicle . It's called solarshield or similar and they guarantee it for 20 years on a house . It can be applied directly onto galvanized iron , it' s self priming . They have it available in four grades of sheen from dead flat to shiny . Mike

[Tony Wheeler]

Nowadays Mike the professionals use portable handheld spectrometers. As Gina mentioned a while back: "Florite paints have provided all the spectrographic analysis and colour matching , even visiting the Tank with their electronic equipment to ensure we had it right."

The advantage of spectrometry, obviously enough, is that it doesn't rely on human eyesight and lighting conditions. As opposed to our Senior Curator wandering the dimly lit bowels of AWM storage clutching his 1905 Munsell Book of Colours. Of course, in this particular case the artifact can be removed into daylight, where an acceptable colour match for our purposes may indeed be possible.

Gina, you mentioned back in September: "spectrographs of the AWM and AA chip sets remains a high priority for me." Is it possible to get Florite in to spectro the AWM chips? If it's a question of costs I'm happy to contribute.

[Jacques Reed]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I have mentioned this before, a good prospect for finding matt paint is modern external house paint , it is usually water based and it's freely available in hardware stores .

Here is another option for solvent based enamels:

I was supplied the following tin of Viponds matting agent by my famous "We thought it was a once off tint so we did not bother to write down the tint formula". paint supplier for KG-J.
At least they seem to have gotten one thing right.

Viponds is an Australian product made in Melbourne and should be readily available.

I had good success with it even if I did not have success with the paint formula being reproducible.

The Wattyl Agricultural enamel only comes in gloss so they suggested the Viponds agent would be the way to make it Semi-gloss or eggshell.

As shown below the left chip is gloss Wattyl enamel as tinted and the right one is 1:8 ratio of tint to paint to get a "satin finish" as per their instructions.
It can be used as high as 1:4 ratio to get a "low sheen finish".

Cheers

[Mrs Vampire]

sorting through the paint samples I note here some anomalies.

The Canberra set of seventeen plates are somewhat different to both the Australian standard and the Berger colour chart.

The Australian standard has fifteen colours and include O warm sand ( which appears to be close to the British desert colour and R red .

The Berger sheet has only 11 colours J.K,L,M,N,P,Q,R,S,T, U,...missing O Warm sand

None of the colour charts have Tarmac save for the sample in the archive in Melbourne it is no where else and W light Earth also only in the archive in Melbourne.
R red is in both the the Australian standard and the Berger chart.

The RAAF colours as depicted in the spartan chart are both very different to the army colours and have a quite different range. RAAF foliage Green for instance bears little resemblance to the Army Foliage green.

I have yet to examine Dakins discourse with they RAAF however it seems clear at the moment they were on a very different trajectory. Dakin does say he had a very good relationship with the RAAF and they were keen to take his advice.

If I can get my hands on a Spartan chart I will add it to the book and hunt down the colours history. Without a chart there is little point in pursuing it.

I will take a gander at the Canberra chips in a few weeks but the samples in Melbourne I feel are the best given their lack of exposure to light over time.

I will also do a set of trial chips and send them of to Mike.... well both Mikes ....Cecil and Starmers. the latter mainly as a help to his work and an opinion on our KG3 and warm sand O

Here are the samples of the first eleven

[Mrs Vampire]

Hi Jacques

your post is consistent with the advice I have to hand.Matting agents will not Matt down to 5% and your samples show that.

Eggshell is around 3% and flat is less than 1

[Mike Kelly]

I painted my C8 with Wattyl flat Olive Drab enamel . Wattyl had the Defence Dept. contract for some years . In the 90's You could buy it in 4 litre cans from Wattyl outlets, they never asked what I was using it for . Out of the can, it's the colour the Army Land Rovers were finished in at that time. It's about as flat as you can get paint , it has a heavy flattening agent suspended in the paint that tends to sink to the bottom of the can over time . The cans were plain , without any paper labels but instead, a stencilled description on the can.

I wasn't happy with the colour out of the can , I got hold of some tinting agents and I tried to get it to a more appropriate shade . I was never happy with the result but went ahead anyway.

The Wattyl product has proven to be long lasting , it does mark easily but you have to expect that with flat paint . I am pretty sure it isn't available these days.

BTW it is easy to mix up various shades of Olive green from a yellow base , you use Black and Red as tinters .

[Jacques Reed]

Hi Mike,

Ah yes! Remember well a few trips to the Wattyl trade depot at Moorrabbin 20 years ago to get the current ADF paint. The Internet was new then so not a lot of info out there. Even if it was, monochrome screens and dot matrix printers would not be of much use. If it was Army Green/Olive Drab/Khaki that was good enough to put on anything other than a Jeep in light of any other information.
Most military vehicle restorers only restored Jeeps then of which their correct colour paint was easier to obtain. I think even the VMVC was just called the Victorian Jeep Club originally.
No one restored CMP trucks and on more than one occasion back then I was told I must be crazy to be doing it. I too, was never really happy with the colour but it sufficed until some better information came to hand.

Anyway 20 years on I bit the bullet and have started the repaint job beginning with the spare set of wheels. They have already had the POR15 treatment inside after a few hours on the flap disks smoothing out as much pitting as possible.

Note the difference in the colours between the current ADF Olive Drab and the recently acquired KG3 on both the wheels and the test patches.

[Jacques Reed]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I painted my C8 with Wattyl flat Olive Drab enamel . Wattyl had the Defence Dept. contract for some years . In the 90's You could buy it in 4 litre cans from Wattyl outlets,
The Wattyl product has proven to be long lasting , it does mark easily but you have to expect that with flat paint . I am pretty sure it isn't available these days.

Hi Mike,

I bought a 20 litre can of it in Jan 2010 from the Wattyl Trade Depot at Chelsea Heights Vic. Note it was semi-gloss however.
They told me it was no longer available in 4 litre cans.
I won't need it now but if anyone is repainting an Australian Leopard Tank and needs 20 litres that's the place to go.
Handy hint too: Decant it into 4 litre cans after purchase. When I opened it a couple of months after the previous use there was a one inch thick skin on it despite a good seal and having a clamping band on the lid. Never saw paint develop such a thick skin so quickly.

Cheers,

[Mike Kelly]

Hi Jacques

Yes I used to get the lusterless olive drab enamel from the Moorabbin depot. I recall , back in the 1990's driving all the way there, only to find it closed, the staff were on strike I've never seen the semi gloss version that you have .

Where did you get your KG3 mixed ?

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

sorting through the paint samples I note here some anomalies.

Hi Gina

The disparities you mention arise from changes to the schedule and failure to update sample sets accordingly. I've tabulated changes for ease of reference:

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

The Canberra set of seventeen plates are somewhat different to both the Australian standard and the Berger colour chart.

Importantly they contain all colours of interest to vehicle owners. I've taken the liberty of tailoring REL/16500 to vehicles:

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

The Australian standard has fifteen colours

I'm pretty sure it should be 16 colours as per table above. What colours are in the booklet?

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

The Berger sheet has only 11 colours J.K,L,M,N,P,Q,R,S,T, U

I notice those colours comprise the RIGHT half of the chart. It's my guess you're seeing a partially folded chart. I've photoshopped one to create the effect:




Of interest are colours marked X on above chart. These are the seven "primary" colours recommended as field stocks, from which the other 11 colours can all be mixed:






continued next post....

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

None of the colour charts have Tarmac save for the sample in the archive in Melbourne it is no where else

Dark Tarmac No.4 was the British name, and unlike Khaki Green No.3 the British specification was not adopted in Australia. S.A.A. facsimile colour appears to be E - Purple Grey.

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

W light Earth also only in the archive in Melbourne.

What about that first panel on the AWM set?

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

I will take a gander at the Canberra chips in a few weeks but the samples in Melbourne I feel are the best given their lack of exposure to light over time.

Only the metal chips provide the standard for colour matching. Cardboard panels are intended "for general guidance and information only." As such they cannot lead to an authoritative standard for vehicle use, irrespective of condition. Refer my post #250 above: "Gina, you mentioned back in September: "spectrographs of the AWM and AA chip sets remains a high priority for me." Is it possible to get Florite in to spectro the AWM chips? If it's a question of costs I'm happy to contribute."

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

Here are the samples of the first eleven

Awesome!! Can you post pics showing colour names? Most of us have never seen these Australian Standard Colours.

BTW did you happen to catch the ABC doco a few months back on the history of camouflage? Dakin's group was featured. It's still on my recorder if you missed it.



Cheers,
Tony

[Mrs Vampire]

Some more from my research

I have managed to borrow a paint spectrograph for a couple of weeks and have now inspectd and measured the sample plates held by the AWM.
I have also read and copied a good deal of Frank Hinders personal papers.

I cant post images right now but will later.

The results are .
The standards plates held by the AWM have faded to the extent they are not useful being at least four shades lighter and a Good deal of damage and scuffing of their surface. Sufficient to establish that the gloss is les then 1%

This makes the Berger samples in the national archive the most reialble source given it has been well protected and rarely exposed to light.

The Canberra plates were not devised by Hinder as noted on their details of the artifact. They were in fact devised by a paint technologist from Berger paints in Melbourne in 1940 loosely based on the British standard colors adapted to Australian standards and availability of non led pigments.

I have managed to find some of the base pigments and proportions for some colours .

The AWM has , using the Munsel system and the Australian Standards book ( which they do not poses a copy of so they used a borrowed copy) .have had two sets of plated made. They are very very close to those plates I have had access to and I regard them as close enough.

Their KG3 colour is the same as the Protek / Bob Mosely colour . There is a disparity on the KGJ and Light Stone depending if they acquired the artifact pre restored or they did the job themselves. Their KGJ is spot on however the dingo is not accurate.

The North African Desert Yellow is all over the shop with the Marmon Herington , the Long 25pdr and other artifacts being quite different colours. This is puzzling as they have a captured German AA Gun painted German Tan and over painted with the UK "Desert Yellow " ( light stone )
The original artifact is a good deal more yellow than either the Marmon Herington or the 25Pdr

I also viewed the 2 pdr which has been on display for many many years. The paint is original and as used in Malaya. It establishes the pre war Deep Bronze Green as used in Australia up until about mid 1940 . It is quite different to the Deep Bronze Green used after the war and somewhat different to Mike Starmers sample.

All in all a very interesting visit

[Mrs Vampire]

Couple of Photos re last post

Right is a photo of my I phone 5 next to a plate from the series to give an idea of the size. They are steel and quite heavy...also of interest is the damage to the surface due to rough handling over the years. The AWM search the collection facility on the web indicates they have two sets. A through search of their holdings has only found this single set.
Two possibilities. One has gone missing, or it was incorrectly cataloged in the first place.

Left photo from left to right Original plate from Berger held by AWM paint sample from original Can applied to plate 2016 and finally Florite reproduction using modern available pigment ...Colour KGJ ..of course

[Mrs Vampire]

This one more accurately shows the difference between the Original KGJ from NOS 1942 unopened tin panel created 2016 and the standard plate created by Berger held by the AWM

I think that fairly comprehensibly shows the uselessness of the AWM plate-set for the purposes of a Standards reference.

I note in passing the photograph of the plates in the online search of the AWM collection shows the set in much better condition than they appear to be now.

Tony's comment re the plates being the authoritative standard noted however it is now apparent the only standard more accurate than the Melbourne Berger samples or a well stored copy of the Australian Standard is cans of original unopened paint stock.

The standards in my publication will be based on the Australian archives chips the Australian standards books I have access to and the cans of original paint I have been so kindly loaned.

The Canberra plates are the only known surviving set of original standards plates.

[Mrs Vampire]

Tony the dark Tarmac chip for the Australian colour set is in the archives.

MP508/1 305/733/146 Camouflage finishes (with sample)

[Tony Smith]

This may or may not be relevant to this conversation, but in Australia, Dulux Trade Centres are selling a colour scanning device called the Snapshot.

Dulux have had for some an app for you phone that allows you to take a picture of a painted surface to find the "Name" of that colour in the Dulux range, to then allow you to go and buy the paint you liked so much on your friends dining room wall, your neighbor's fence, or your landlord's apartment.

Now, the Snapshot will also allow you to do that as well, but it will also record the colour tint to allow a match if the colour is not a propriety Dulux colour.

Is this likely to as good as a spectrograph? I doubt it. Is it likely to be able to record a colour to enable a batch of "very close" auto enamel to be tinted? Probably. It's not the answer for everyone, but it might suit some.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

This one more accurately shows the difference between the Original KGJ from NOS 1942 unopened tin panel created 2016 and the standard plate created by Berger held by the AWM

I think that fairly comprehensibly shows the uselessness of the AWM plate-set for the purposes of a Standards reference.

Tony's comment re the plates being the authoritative standard noted however it is now apparent the only standard more accurate ........... is cans of original unopened paint stock.

Cans of original paint can give you any shade of KG3 you could desire!

[Mrs Vampire]

Tony S

I have a slightly different take on that can of paint and would very much like a sample as I have never seen that shade before. Given it is special High temperature paint I expect the basic composition would prevent an exact match by the maker to KG3 colour plate.

It would be a boon to all of those MV restorer out there who have to put KG3 on exhaust pipes etc to heave the correct colour.

Many thanks for posting that picture and making me aware of another facet to the puzzle.

[Mrs Vampire]

Well it's done . I have now spectro'd the Berger coulor set in Melbourne as well as their KG3 sample .

I have a complete set of readings from available sources .

[Mike Cecil]

Well done, Gina: a lot of work in all of that.

Some background: From memory, the AWM's Dingo was based upon a paint layer analysis, so the status of the original paint before it was covered with the next layer could well have been weathered.

The MH tractor was as supplied by the seller in Qld (I arranged for its purchase), so it's his gloss/semi-gloss version of Light Stone. Same with the Limber and the more recently acquired No.12 FGT. I think the 25-pdr in the storage area (there is also one on display in the WW2 gallery) was done in Lustreless Acrylic, which from my limited experience with it, is never a close match to anything! In the least, it was a modern water-based paint, so a different formula to its WW2 counterpart. Conservation were always so concerned with 'off gassing' of enamel paints into storage or display areas that the then-conservation manager almost always opted for Acrylic. So I've little doubt that none of the items coloured Light stone/desert yellow in the collection are a match to each other or to a 'standard' example!

Great work, Gina. We have all learned a lot from your labours.

Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

Many Thanks Mike ...That is high praise indeed coming from you

will post the text on to you when complete.

[Jacques Reed]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Well done, Gina: a lot of work in all of that.
Great work, Gina. We have all learned a lot from your labours.

Mike

Hi Gina,

I second that!

Started the repaint of my truck about 6 weeks ago in the Florite KG3 and am happy with the results.

There were no problems overpainting the Wattyl and Croda OD alkyd enamel paints.

After too many paint issues over the years it is nice to have a regular supplier who can make a consistently accurate colours.

I got the wheels, mudguards, fuel tanks, and windscreens repainted before cold and rain halted play this autumn. It went a lot faster than the first time with not having to remove grease, mud, and rust first!

As can be seen in the photo there as a substantial difference in colour to the current ADF Olive Drab which is the colour paint I have been using from the beginning on the truck.

Many thanks again Gina for all your work on this subject and for pointing me in the right direction.

Cheers,

[Mrs Vampire]

Looks very nice indeed Jacques.

[Lionelgee]

Hello Gina and Informed Others,

If KG3 cane out around 1942, does this imply that a vehicle made by Holden for the Australian Army; namely, a Chevrolet truck in 1940 would have been painted: KG2?

Or was it KG1 back in 1940?

What would the components and mix of the 1940 paintwork be?

Yes, I have 100% vested interests in the answer to these questions. Just take a glance at my signature photograph

The colour plate on my vehicle's firewall just says "Khaki". At the moment it is, "pick a green - any green"; plus surface rust!

Kind Regards
Lionel