CMP in North Africa...

[AKosion]

Folks,
Is it possible to give a production date or similar for the CMP in the attached photo? It's been captured by the Italians. Although the windscreen seems to be missing, but the rest is in good shape - combined with the hoop behind the driver, this makes me think this is designed similar to the early style british trucks with the aero windscreens. It appears to have been in Indian Army service before the cockerel-feather boys hot hold of it.
Thanks!
Aris Kosionidis

[cliff]

It is an early #11 cab but no CMP was made with aero windscreens so I guess it was a field modification. I think you will find that the windscreen frame has been removed.

[lynx42]

Not only is it a 1940 No.11 cab, but it's a FORD. By the bridging plate I think it's also only an F15A.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

There were no, to my knowledge, British # 11 Cab F15As, so may I suggest a SM 2002 F15, which would place it as at least January 1941 onwards?

[cletrac (RIP)]

It looks like it's a Ford Cab 11 4x2 and it has the 2A1 wooden box. The windshield and doors have been removed but in the desert you'd have to get rid of the heat from that V8 water heater somehow! The canvas hoop on the back of the cab and the little "windscreen" are definitely field mods.It doesn't have the towing D-rings on the bumper but notice the towing loops behind the bumper. These and the 2A1 box point to early 1940 production but it does have the cab vents.
David, wouldn't January 1941 onwards be 12 cabs? To me, this looks like June or July 1940 production. The 2B1 metal boxes seem to show up on the late cab 11s.
This is the same type vehicle as in Atillio's DAK truck identification thread.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

No David, these were # 11 Cabs, with production starting late August 1940 as 1941 Models, August 26th for Fords in fact and September 3rd for Chevrolets. These did not arrive in Alexandria until late December/early January 1941 for assembly, so that's the earliest the photo could have been taken. They were then of course sent to Greece, and then promptly captured, along with 4x2 types, by the Axis!

I can't give you a definite date for the change-over to # 12 Cabs but it was in early 1941 as it included 1940 MODEL Canadian orders, all UK ones being 1941 Models. As regards Chevrolet:

THUMB SCREW TYPE ENGINE HOODS...BEFORE SERIAL # 084XX04001 AND # 184XX05004 (# 11 CABS)
ALLIGATOR TYPE HOOD..ON OR AFTER 084XX04001 AND 184XX05004 TO SERIAL # 284XX01523....(# 12 CABS)

[AKosion]

Gentlemen,
First of all, thank you for the quick and comprehensive answers. To be honest, I thought the question was a long shot, but in this company, the term needs to be redefined :-) .
Bit of a faux-pas on my part mentioning aero windscreens, but I'll book an appointment for flagellation this week :-) . What I meant was that maybe the truck was designed with an open or canvas cab- I think there's a clip of such a version in Iran at britishpathe.com .
Anyway, it's a good guess the Ford used to belong to the 3rd Indian Motor Brigade, it carries what looks like their horseshoe insignia on the fender. The Brigade met the Axis in N. Africa twice, on April '41 and May '42, getting very seriously beaten by superior numbers both times. The Caunter scheme suggests the 1941 date, I think. Dating the CMP type is an extra constraint.
best regards
Aris Kosionidis

[cliff]

I found the photo below captioned "Trucks of the Anti-locust campaign at Rayena Sth Persia" while doing a search using the Pictures Australia website. It shows a similar CMP to above with what appears to be the hood bows for a rag top and no windscreed frame.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by AKosion
What I meant was that maybe the truck was designed with an open or canvas cab...

Properly speaking, Aris, the truck was designed with the hardtop/windscreen, but adapted as required for desert or tropical use. At what level conversion was undertaken and additional fittings were added for the latter applications I do not know, but true to form (it's inevitable), someone here will...

[AKosion]

Found two more CMPs that seem to have been adapted (thank you Geoff!) in a similar way. One is from an older eBay lot, the other from the already mentioned clip on pathe (Nr.1133.13) . With Cliff's find, that's four already.
best regards
Aris Kosionidis

[AKosion]

Sorry for the small size, it was not the centrepiece of te photo.
Aris

[George McKenzie]

I have a book World War 2 Allied Vehicles by John Blackman. On page 21 there is a good picture of a Chev Canadian built C15 open cab that was used in Libya. It has the aro-screen windshield and machinegun mount .It was used by the French army George

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

They appear to my poor eyes as though they are # 12 and # 11 cab Chevrolets, C15s? They would be to SM 2002 again.

I had a sudden thought when the IA was mentioned, but despite original requests by the Ministry of Supply to send thousands of C15/F15 trucks to Bombay, this was changed a short time later in August 1940 to delivery to Egypt mainly. They were then of course, with other vehicles, issued to the AIF, NZEF and IA and then "sold" from mid-1941 to the Australian and NZ Governments, the War Office acquiring any for the Government of India.

[bob42100]

The 6 AoS on blue-red is the early Anti-Tank Royal Artillery so perhaps she towed a 2 Pdr or a Bofors Anti-Tang gun?

The air vents on the Pattern 11 cab is odd, what was the transition date to Pattern 12?

Here is a similar early AoS from France 1940.

-Bob

[lynx42]

Bit close for comfort in the Bedford MW. At least 3 bullet holes on the LHS. Glad I wasn't the co-driver in that one.

[George McKenzie]

The enemy likely though it was a lefhand drive vehicle george

[AKosion]

Bob,
Nice Bedford photo! "one previous owner, low mileage..."
I'm not confident about making that AoS match. The Indian Army had its own system, or was following British lines but with idiosyncrasies, so a "6" might mean something totally different. It's a possibility though.
Aris

[bob42100]

Aris,

If you look closely at the CMP AoS sign you can see the two tones split horizontal which should be blue.red with a white 6. This was the early war A0S for Anti-Tank units. Indian markings I'm not sure about, they may have the same or perhaps it isn't Indian?

If you like the Bedford, here is a side view of the same. I'd love to be the Jerry who stumbled across such a nice example of the MW.

-Bob

[AKosion]

From Armes Miltaria HS No.50 "De l'Irak a Syrie", entering Aleppo in July 1941 is...

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Reminds me of a 2-pounder Portee with # 42 cab but it cannot be.

[AKosion]

David,
Not trying to be contrary here, but I think a portee wouldn't sit so low- and it's missing the rounded extensions each side of the cab. The latter could have been removed, of course...
Aris

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I was very careful, thanks, in my wording as it reminds me of the canvas hooding as used on the Portees, though much shorter. Am I right in saying that this was an "Indian Army" style?

I have checked and my memory is correct: no S/M 2002-6 CMPs [the very first British orders] were delivered to Bombay in the end though the initial intention was that a large number would be sent. The Indian Army supplied large numbers of 1940 Model Chevrolets assembled in Bombay to Egypt, and the War Office then asked the London Exchange Requirements Committee for $$$ to purchase spare parts for them, some of which could be paid in Egyptian Pounds.

I can only suggest that this is an Alexandria-assembled early # 11 cab, with local modifications!

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by AKosion
From Armes Miltaria HS No.50 "De l'Irak a Syrie", entering Aleppo in July 1941 is...

This is a Ford F15. It's the canvas which makes it look like something it isn't.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

...it's a S/M 2002 truck assembled in Alexandria from December 1940/January 1941.

[Keith Webb]

Looks like a cab 11 version like the pic at the top of the page.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by George McKenzie
I have a book World War 2 Allied Vehicles by John Blackman. On page 21 there is a good picture of a Chev Canadian built C15 open cab that was used in Libya. It has the aro-screen windshield and machinegun mount .It was used by the French army George

George,

Here's another picture of that truck. It was rebuilt with some modifications (including a diesel engine), so one could doubt it's value as a reference vehicle.

Hanno


Source: http://www.mvcgfrance.org

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I was very careful, thanks, in my wording as it reminds me of the canvas hooding as used on the Portees, though much shorter. Am I right in saying that this was an "Indian Army" style?

I have checked and my memory is correct: no S/M 2002-6 CMPs [the very first British orders] were delivered to Bombay in the end though the initial intention was that a large number would be sent. The Indian Army supplied large numbers of 1940 Model Chevrolets assembled in Bombay to Egypt, and the War Office then asked the London Exchange Requirements Committee for $$$ to purchase spare parts for them, some of which could be paid in Egyptian Pounds.

I can only suggest that this is an Alexandria-assembled early # 11 cab, with local modifications!

David,

Yes, this was the "Indian Pattern" style. All MCPs and CMPs assembled in India from CKD packs seem to have been chassis/cowls or cabs only, fitted with locally produced composite (angle iron and wood) GS-style bodies. They do not have a metal cab roof nor windscreen.

I'm not sure about contracts and delivery dates, but the trucks shown in this thread all seem to be of the Indian Pattern type, which I doubt were assembled in Alexandria?

Hanno


Linked from Bombay Chev

[Keith Brooker]

Photo taken in India in 1942.
Keith

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Keith Brooker

Photo taken in India in 1942.

Keith,

Thanks; I moved your post from Indian Pattern FAT to here, as there are more of these Indian Pattern 15-cwt 4x2's in this thread.

Hanno