Aec "dorchester" armoured command vehicle

[cliff]

I have just started making this AFV 1/35 scale vehicle with full interior including a #19 radio and while reading the instructions I found that 7 of these vehicles were given to the Australian Forces in the Middle East to use during the battles fought there.

Now I have several questions about this so if Mike Cecil or other knowledgable folk out there can help I'd appreciate it.

Did the Australians accually have these and were they marked with Australian Formation signs and numbers?

Is there anywhere on line or otherwise that show photos of these vehicles in Australian Service?

Any help appreciated

The AEC Command vehicles were based on the AEC Matador and I believe AFV models is going to bring out a Matador kit as well later in the year and if it is as good as this kit it will be a winner

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by cliff

while reading the instructions I found that 7 of these vehicles were given to the Australian Forces in the Middle East

I recall reading recently that Australians were given 7 Matadors in the ME, but I assumed they were HAA gun tractors as seen in pic 1. If so, I wonder if this is the origin of the 7 Dorchester story...? I'll try to track down the reference.

Armour isn't my field so I only have one Dorchester pic, which looks British to my untrained eye. I can't recall where I found it but I'm sure I could track it down if need be.

[George Moore]

Interesting photo of the Dorchester especially as it has been camouflaged to look like a truck.
This design was one of the those by Major Jasper Maskelyne, a famous stage magician in civilian life.
Though not rare, photgraphs are few and far between of this scheme.

George.

[Tony Smith]

Cliff, THIS OLD THREAD shows a bit of accumulated info on the Dorchester. It features Bob Dimer's Dorchester (at that time) which appears to have an ARN 138713 and WD No.4137719, which would suggest Aust Army ownership. To determine the date of this acquistion, you'd have to check the AWM ARN books for 138713.

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Cliff, THIS OLD THREAD shows a bit of accumulated info on the Dorchester. It features Bob Dimer's Dorchester (at that time) which appears to have an ARN 138713 and WD No.4137719, which would suggest Aust Army ownership. To determine the date of this acquistion, you'd have to check the AWM ARN books for 138713.

Thanks Tony. Can anyone who has access to the ARN books look this up for me please? Be nice to finish this model as an Aussie one if possible

[lynx42]

Cliff, there is or was a Dorchester in the to be restored collection at the Puckapunyal Armoured Museum a few years ago. It was out the back, just the hull, they were looking for a Matador chassis to put under it. Maybe a call to them might give up some details.

regards Rick.


By the way, should this be under the Armoured Section?

[George Moore]

Cliff, by way of interest, the "OLD THREAD" has some interior shots, though badly rusted, what could be the original interior colour can still be seen in parts.....white or cream!

I guess you have seen the discussion on Missing Links re the interior of these beasties ????
It looks as if the chequered pattern on the ceiling was some sort of adhesive to secure the padding "sound proofing", or maybe even a form of heat insulation for use in the desert ??

George.

[cliff]

Hi George I have not seen the item on Missing Links as I am not a member there. Just finished the chassis and started the rear floor area. I will do mine as an Australian one so may paint it in different colours yet but the interior will be white.

[cliff]

Originally Posted by lynx42

By the way, should this be under the Armoured Section?

Not really as it is a truck chassis under all that armour plate

[Tony Wheeler]

I found the Dorchester photo again, it's on the NZ National Library site. This is an excellent site for MV photos - extensive collection, high quality images, powerful search functions, and you can even access the high res image and zoom in on detail. As opposed to AWM who want $40 for their high res images!

http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/detail/?id=...raphic+Archive

Scroll to bottom of page and click on "View Archived Image on NDHA"

[lynx42]

Originally Posted by cliff

Not really as it is a truck chassis under all that armour plate

That is one way of looking at it, Cliff, but what about the Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost based Armoured Cars and many other commercially based armoured vehicles.

They are nearly always are in the Armoured section, not the Soft Skin Forum.

Maybe this is one for the other moderators to decide on.

Regards Rick.

PS.Have you got dry feet yet?

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Cliff - back in 2003 I was communicating with Bob Dimer in the west. The subjec of a Dorchester came up and as I did not know a Dorchester from a lettuce Bob sent me some images of his. Unfortunately Bob is no longer with us but maybe his images can help you with your model.

Bob

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

More images

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Last one. Bob is no longer with us but hopefully his legacies live on.

Bob

[cliff]

Thanks Bob. Be nice to know where his Dorchester is now

[cliff]

Originally Posted by lynx42

That is one way of looking at it, Cliff, but what about the Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost based Armoured Cars and many other commercially based armoured vehicles.

They are nearly always are in the Armoured section, not the Soft Skin Forum.

Maybe this is one for the other moderators to decide on.

Regards Rick.

PS.Have you got dry feet yet?

Hi Rick,

I am happy with my post in the Softskin section and I know even among modelers there is a difference of opinion over whether to class them as Armour or softskin And why should the other moderators decide on this anyway?

As to dry feet what are they? We saw a small amount of sunshine yesterday but they tell us there is more rain coming so still time for another flood up here yet!

[Mike Cecil]

Seven AEC ACVs on the Australian inventory. Last disposed of in about 1960.

Bob Dimer had the hull: he sourced a rolling chassis from Geelong, Victoria (via me: that's how I know).

Mike C

[Allan Currey]

I came across this picture, must be in an Australian museum somewhere, maybe WA? It seems to carry the same ARN as Bob Dimer's did.
Also, all the pictures of these in Australia show High Power versions with the vents, so were any of the 7 we had Low Power? (as per the kit you have Cliff)

Cheers,
Allan

[Euan McDonald]

The last time I saw Bob's AEC was in the yard of the Merredin Military museum.
It was very late one night when i looked over the fence but it did look like it had a lot of work done on it since Bob owned it. I think it may be owned by Mal but maybe one of the westerners can update us.
The pic attached was found in an old post by Jack from WA.

[cliff]

OK Guys you talk about high power and low power with the hi power type having vents. Where and what are these vents?

Are they the two louvre type vents on the rear and LHS rear? These would be easy enough for me to make if they are. Did the HiPower have different radios? If so what type/s?

[JackM]

Originally Posted by cliff

Thanks Bob. Be nice to know where his Dorchester is now

Cliff,

The Dorchester has changed hands a couple of times since Bob D put chassis and body together. The current owner has done some first rate work on both the interior and exterior. It regularly appears at the annual Bruce Rock Veterans Re-union.

As was mentioned by Euan, the vehicle now graces the Merredin Military Museum, on loan from its owner and is shown here in company with a Cent at one of the recent Bruce Rock gatherings.




Jack

[Allan Currey]

Hi Cliff,

First of all, I'm no expert on Dorchesters, but want to make a model myself, so was doing some research. There seems to be some uncertainty around identifying the different versions.
Having said that, it does appear that one way to tell high power versions is the vents on the left side above the wheel arch, and on the back. These are because HP versions carried an internal 1260 watt charging set, whereas LP versions carried a 550 watt set under the floor (I suspect that may be part C7 in the AFV Club model).
As for radios, apparently LPs carried low and high power No.19 sets; and HPs had a No.19 set and an RCA receiver (I don't know what sort exactly).
The other mystery, for me anyway, is the curved metal sheets over the top edges. It was a disguise supposed to make the ACV look more like a GS truck, but I'm not sure if it was used on LPs, HPs, or both.
One last bit, the RAAC museum lists their ACV as a HP. Maybe all Aussie ones could have been. If HP gave greater radio range, that would make sense for use in Australia.

Hope that helps,
Allan

[eddy8men]

this old girl was rusting away in scotland but has apparently now been saved and is somewhere in the south of england

[Mike Cecil]

Well, it is good to see the former Bob Dimer ACV has been saved, and restored. Looks great! He'd have been proud. He went to considerable expense to drive from WA to Victoria and back again to retrieve the Matador rolling chassis.

Pity the MM's Centurion has a 105mm main armament barrel, but better than nothing, I suppose.

Hi Power and Low Power: there is excellent coverage in Louis Meulstee's Wireless for the Warrior Volume 2. Anyone interested in MVs should have a set of these books and the compendiums that followed. Anyway, there are diagrams for the various internal fitouts of the LP and HP 4x4 ACVs.

Simply, the early LP has no rear or side vents, with the gen set housed under the floor.
The later LP has large rear and side vents, with a 1260 watt set housed in a cupboard inside the rear left corner of the hull, and spare batteries in the underfloor well. Wireless was multiple No.19 sets plus WS No.34.

The HP has smaller side and rear vents for the ONAN 3KVA gen set which was housed inside the rear left corner of the hull in its own compartment, and a battery charging set was housed in the well under the floor. The seating, etc is also very different in its layout.
Wireless sets were No.19, Reception Set No.R107, a Typex cipher machine, and an RCA Wireless Sender unit.

Mike C

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by lynx42

By the way, should this be under the Armoured Section?

Rick,

Of course it should, the Army classified ACV's as "A" type vehicles. Cliff probably placed this thread in the softskin forum - for "B" type vehicles - as he's going to paint his model as an ACV camouflaged as a truck

Both brilliant camouflage, by the way.

H.

[Allan Currey]

Thanks for explaining the detail, Mike. Better than my effort!

Is it safe to say then that all the AECs with visible vents pictured in posts above are HP versions with small vents? None seem larger than any other.

Cheers
Allan

[Mike Cecil]

I assume so, Allan: I have not looked hard at ACVs so I'm not sure how much larger/smaller the two vent types are.

Maybe our 'Englander' friends can enlighten both of us?

Mike C

[cliff]

I have just scaled the vents as best I could from the photos I have. The vents are quite large so I am guessing the Aussie one's were the early type HP bodies so I am going to cut the holes and make the vents for my model plus add the extra aerials to the roof shown in the ex Bob D truck photo.

Thanks everyone for their help

[George Moore]

Somehow I thought I had posted this earlier today, but where it went I know not where.

It came from the David Jane "inkpen" series and shows the camouflage applied to the rear of the Dorchester.

George.

[Tim Bell]

A couple more pics from google land



Tim