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  #1  
Old 30-12-16, 03:58
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Default No.1 Mk.2 Cupola on Sherman

The attached image is of a Sherman turret fitted with what appears to be a British No.1 Mk.2 vision cupola - the crew commander's vision cupola fitted to the Centurion Mk.1 and the later Centurion ARV Mk.2.

Does anyone on the forum have any solid information on when and why the Brits would have fitted this cupola to the Sherman tank turret? Does anyone know of any examples still in existence?

Thanks

Mike

www.michaelkcecil.com
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  #2  
Old 30-12-16, 10:03
tankbarrell tankbarrell is offline
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Mike, I think it was one of many mods that Shermans might have had applied but other events removed the need.
The US vision cupola, fitted to new build Shermans from mid to late 1944 was not a direct comparison as it did not rotate.
There was an intention to retrofit earlier Shermans with loaders hatches, it's mentioned as a future mod in the August 1944 Vehicle Pamphlet.
I suspect the British vision cupola was a rare sight in Sherman.
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  #3  
Old 30-12-16, 10:37
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Dont know who or when... a pic I found online...

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Name:	ShermanVcupola-BRITISH-2.jpg
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I have a Sherman ARV Cupola with the spacer ring which will go onto my Firefly when it is restored.

Whilst not original to the vehicle, the original cupola "disappearing" somewhere between recovery from the firing range and my acquisition, clearly from the attached pic, Fireflies were fitted with them, so it will have to do.

I have some other pics, will dig them up and post.

I also have some documentation on this from National Archive, (edit) have now looked at that and unfortunately it does not reference the M4 Sherman, so wont post any extracts

Tim

Last edited by Tim Bell; 30-12-16 at 11:06. Reason: Update on reference to National Archive docs
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  #4  
Old 30-12-16, 10:39
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This time identified... Loreto Parade - 15th August 1945, Loreto, Italy.

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Name:	ShermanVcupola-BRITISH-3.jpg
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Tim

Last edited by Tim Bell; 30-12-16 at 10:44.
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  #5  
Old 30-12-16, 11:01
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Canadian Sherman in Germany 1945

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Name:	ShermanVcupola-Canadian.jpg
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Edit - have just realised this pic is posted elsewhere here on MLU...

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...?t=3573&page=4

With note from Bill Miller to say:

The PA number listed for the photo you posted is the old original negative number . It has a new PA number and description:

REFERENCE NUMBERS:
_ ACCESSION:_ _ 1967-052
_ REPRODUCTION:_ _ PA-159252 (copy negative number);

Sherman tanks lined up along the route await the order to proceed with the infantry - 4th Canadian Armed Division chasing German paratroopers out of town
1945 / Wertle, Germany — 1 item — 2 1/4 sq. in.

Then with further comment from Mark Tonner to say...

Some more details regarding this photo. If indeed it was taken at Wertle, the Kangaroos would be those of "B" Sqn, 1 CACR and the tanks would be those of the 21 Cdn Armd Regt (GGFG).

....


As my Sherman is ex-21st Cdn Armd Regt, it would be interesting to know when the ARV Cupolas were fitted.

Tim

Last edited by Tim Bell; 30-12-16 at 11:14. Reason: Updated info about pic
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  #6  
Old 30-12-16, 11:03
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Last image I trawled up from the web a while ago...

Sherman somewhere...

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Name:	ShermanVcupola-British-1.jpg
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ID:	87487

If anyone can identify the who, when etc of this and the other pics, that would be excellent.

Tim
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  #7  
Old 30-12-16, 16:32
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They were a rare sight indeed, but as Tim shows they can be found on Shermans modified by the British like Fireflies. I think I have seen them on Crabs as well, will try to find more info.
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  #8  
Old 30-12-16, 17:25
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Gents,

Thanks for your responses - much appreciated. It was a peripheral aspect of the Centurion story I was not aware of until I recd the image posted in the original post.

The ability to rotate the cupola would appear to be the main impetus for replacing the original fixed Sherman cupola, but it would be interesting to confirm that at some stage.

Another footnote in the Cent story.

Mike
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  #9  
Old 30-12-16, 17:39
tankbarrell tankbarrell is offline
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The original Sherman cupola was fully rotating but it was not a vision cupola. I.E, it had no protected all round vision, just a single, albeit rotatable periscope in one hatch.

Its American replacement, designed to be a exchange unit, gave all round vision through glass blocks but did not rotate.
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Old 30-12-16, 18:27
eddy8men eddy8men is offline
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sorry tim i assumed you were being creative when you wanted to fit the arv cupola. i was wrong (which is actually not that unuaual)
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  #11  
Old 30-12-16, 19:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddy8men View Post
sorry tim i assumed you were being creative when you wanted to fit the arv cupola. i was wrong (which is actually not that unuaual)
Rick

Wouldn't have considered it if it was not correct to type.

It is not correct to the Sherman I have - I know that the Sherman I have did not have this mod when on the firing range in Belgium, so is unlikely to have finished the war with one installed (unless the Belgians removed them?).

I don't have the correct standard cupola, but I do have the ARV version with the Sherman adapter ring.

The known photos indicate that Canadian tanks and Fireflies were fitted with them, though from exactly when is not clear - mid 44 is the earliest I believe this would be likely (though perhaps someone knows for sure).

Does anyone know of any Shermans with this fitted anywhere please?

Tim
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  #12  
Old 30-12-16, 19:55
tankbarrell tankbarrell is offline
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Where did the adapter come from Tim? That must be a rare part if original!
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  #13  
Old 30-12-16, 22:20
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Here's a survivor. This Sherman was used as a range control vehicle in Germany. It was apparently cobbled together from an M4A3(105) HVSS hull with a Firefly turret. The British cupola on that turret may have come from another British tank, it may also have been orginal to the turret.

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  #14  
Old 31-12-16, 01:09
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Default Episcopes for the ARV cupola

Episcopes for the No1 Mk2 cupola (Cent Mk1 and ARV Mk2) are available from Tim Vibert at http://www.timvibert.com.au/

Mike
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  #15  
Old 31-12-16, 09:58
tankbarrell tankbarrell is offline
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In the picture on his site, the label looks like it says 'Episcope No 7', if so, they will not fit that cupola.
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Old 31-12-16, 13:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tankbarrell View Post
Where did the adapter come from Tim? That must be a rare part if original!
Adrian

I understand that the cupola was recovered from a Sherman turret when the Alpine Wall between Italy and the former Yugoslavia was scrapped around 2010. Am told a significant amount of material was cut up rather than being sold into the preservation market, but fortunately this ARV cupola with the spacer ring was rescued.

This article says that many of the bunkers had Firefly turrets, so perhaps it had been on a Firefly, but cannot say for sure. On the right side of the page, under the facebook icon, you can choose to view it in English.

http://zapisnik.fortif.net/859120-no...y-tagliamento/

For future reference in the event the above link stops working... this summary is direct from the site:

"The last Italian defense line, designed to protect Italy against any attack from the east, has been Located at Tagliamento river. It was built During the Cold War, Because The older Fortifications (Alpine Wall) Were lost with the Italian eastern territories, ceded to Yugoslavia. The line consisted of strongpoints with machine gun nests (M4 Sherman rebuilt to be the MG turrets, WWII German Panzernests and large Italian armored cupolas for two MG's) and anti-tank bunkers (M4 Sherman Firefly turrets, M26 Pershing turrets and whole M26 Pershing tanks - with its engines removed). Every strongpoint has its own underground command post with observation cupola. Allmost all the bunkers Were Destroyed During 2010-2012 to the scrap metal parts. The article Describes the preserved parts of the line."

Tim
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  #17  
Old 31-12-16, 17:10
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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In the picture on his site, the label looks like it says 'Episcope No 7', if so, they will not fit that cupola.

I think you'll find that the images on the site are only there as examples, Adrian - the No.5 Mk.1 episcopes and the No.6 Mk.1 extensible episcope will doubtless be in his storage area somewhere.

I'm sure anyone interested will email Tim and ensure he has the right 'scope for their particular application.

Mike
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  #18  
Old 31-12-16, 17:29
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Tim what is the difference between an ARV split hatch cupola and a regular split hatch style? Is it a larger diameter?

John
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  #19  
Old 31-12-16, 19:15
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John

I think ARV apperture is narrower than the regular Sherman cupola. The ARV one fits to the Sherman with an adapter ring... Check the first pic from Mike in this thread.

Tim
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  #20  
Old 31-12-16, 23:22
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Tim,

I think this might be the original source for the first Firefly Ic pic you posted.
https://audiovis.nac.gov.pl/obraz/225038:1/

A Polish Firefly. According to the description the picture was taken in Italy and the unit is 2 Independent Armoured Brigade, 4 Armoured Regiment "Scorpion".

The same archive also has some close ups, from what I presume is another one of the ARV cupola's.


Alex
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  #21  
Old 01-01-17, 04:21
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Just goes to show you that almost no modification is "incorrect" on a Sherman!
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  #22  
Old 06-01-17, 18:31
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A couple of pics of my ARV cupola which may be of interest...

I suspect there are some parts still missing... other than the Episcopes...

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Name:	ARV-Cupola-WR-1.jpg
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Name:	ARV-Cupola-WR-3.jpg
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Tim
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  #23  
Old 25-01-17, 13:38
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Nice new parts just arrived from Australia... 2 x Hatch door opening springs...

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Tim
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