Mig? Tig? Miller? Lincoln?

RHClarke · #1 18-12-04, 02:11

Got the go-ahead from long-haired niner to get a welder. Now the tough part; deciding which to buy. I have no intentions of doing heavy duty welding, but see body work and general metal repairs in my future.

So, who has one of these beasties? What are the recommendations? Anyone with experience with PowerFist (Princess Auto's line)? Are the instructions that come with the welder sufficient to train a novice to weld (properly)?

R

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #2 18-12-04, 04:05

Mig with argon shielding gas, common models good to 1/4" material and work off 110V household current. Easy to use and won't burn through CMP body skins. Heavier welding can be done professionally or with a rental 200 amp arc welder. Come down for a beer and you can practice on mine. If you're a quick learner, I've some fakey spot welds you may be up to...

herr-pear · #3 18-12-04, 05:21

I'm going to make a statement that should offend EVERYBODY. IMHO the brand of equipment doesn't make a hoot as to how good a welder you are. Of course, parts & service should be factored in, as should availability of consumables and maybe even training.

Mig is the easiest to learn and use and will do most of what you want to do.
Tig is generally for real little stuff, stainless steel & aluminium.
Arc or Stick welders are generally for heaver sections although there is considerable overlap of useful thicknesses of metal with Mig.

I first learned Oxygen-Acetelyne welding and believe most schools prefer to teach that first. With A-C under your belt all the others come easily.

If you are going to teach yourself or have someone teach you on your equipment then Mig is probably the best way to go.

This advice is worth every penny you paid for it.

Phil Waterman · #4 18-12-04, 13:01

I agree that Mig is the way to start, I have a 140 from http://www.usaweld.com/ they have been very good to deal with. My brother has one of their units that he has been using in his shop for I think 20 years. (I have an extra copy of their welding video I would be glad to send you) My father started us welding as kids on oxy-acetylene which is very versatile, when I set up my own shop I started with oxy-acetylene once you learn it good for general welding and cutting, then I got arch welder plain old stick machine 230 amps from Sears, great for heavy welding not as good for light sheet metal. But once I got the 140 amp Mig that’s the one I use all the time.

Bruce has the right idea go practice on somebody else machine see what they like and don’t like about their machine and what they would look for if they were buying again.

However, back to question for the group. What size and what features do you think are necessary? Amperage, voltage, and features the 140 amp will weld anything up to ¼” plate so that is just about everything on a CMP runs on 120 volts it will do continuous seams, stitch weld, but weld sheet metal and even spot welds. I would go with shield gas unit though you can use the flux-core (gasless). Be sure of what you are getting gas regulator and tank are often sold separately.

If you are buying a new one just after the first of the years there seem to be more sales or bargains. There seems to be a price break between the small units 120-130 amp (carry around) and the larger units 140-200+ amp (roll around)

Starting out I would include an auto darkening helmet, they make welding so much easier.

cletrac (RIP) · #5 18-12-04, 14:20

If you plan on doing any welding outside then get the flux core unit. With the gas jobs if there's any breeze the gas will blow away and they won't work. I was pulling my hair out trying to figure out what was wrong before I figured that out on a neighbour's unit. I have a Linoln I got from Costco for $289 several years ago and it works good.

Pete Ashby · #6 18-12-04, 17:44

This answer will go on a bit, but I hope it's worth passing on some of information I’ve picked up over the last 30 years of restoring MV's.
MIG is by far the easiest to get started with and will do all that you need to do on a CMP restoration where panels are 16 gauge (2.5MM). I would suggest a machine at 150 or 175 amp with a cooling fan attached; you will see these advertised as 'turbo' welders. It is worth spending just a little more to get a bigger machine as it gives you more flexibility lower down the range. Get one with a dial up wire speed not a pre set click switch type and you will need a number of power settings. Don't use the little gas cans you can get from hobby or auto shops, get a proper sized bottle from your local bottled gas supplier, here in the UK we use BOC Gas Products, we open an account which costs about £30 year including bottle rental, then just pay a few pounds to pick up a new bottle whenever required.
May sound an expensive option but I will guarantee it is the cheaper option and gives the flexibility to mach the gas used to the type and gauge of steel you are working with.
Gas welding is the next step to master and is useful for a whole range of things. I use gas for very fine work as it is so controllable.

The main point to getting a good weld is preparation, you will read this in all of the books and it's true.
Spend 9 tenths of the job preparing it and one tenth welding it.

• Cut back all rust to firm metal

• Clean the cut edge back to bright metal for at least one and a half inches.

• Use an abrasive flap wheel rather than a grinder disc to clean back to bright steel, it’s more controllable, will not leave big score marks in the work more importantly it will not leave behind abrasive disc material embedded in the work that will cause a bad weld

• Mark and cut an accurate fitting patch (for 16 gauge you will need a gap of about 1mm all round it

• Invest in some G clamps, moles and butterfly clips to hold the patches accurately

• Use the right size welding wire for the job (16 gauge should be 0.6mm if your new or 0.8 when you get better at moving the torch)

• Do put tack welds in at one inch spaces

• Don't do long runs all in one go the work will distort one inch at a time from oposite ends of the work is maximum.

• Don’t let the work go cold between each weld but the red and blue heat needs to be gone before you start again

• Do practise on scrap steel of a similar gauge to the one you intend to use, if you use a bottle of gas and a drum of wire it will be money and time well spent.

As for teach yourself publications the auto restoration press has a number of good titles in the US these are often associated with the Hot Rod market, I would recommend two in particular as they give you comprehensive instructions with lots of pictures, scope of both cover techniques for: MIG, TIG, Arc, Gas, Brazing Soldering and equipment purchase. Both not only tell you how to do it but more importantly what to look for when it goes wrong.

Books titles are as follows:

Farm Welding,
By Andrew Pearce
Farming Press Books UK
US distributed by Diamond Farm Enterprises Box 537 Alexandrian Bay NY 13607
ISBN No 85236 230 7

Automotive Welding Manual
By Jay Storer
Haynes Publishing Sparkford Yeovil, Somerset
US distributed by Haynes N America Inc 861 Lawrence Drive, Newbury Park, Califorinia 91320
ISBN No 85960 201 0

Hope this is of use, I am by no means an expert welder, but I was lucky to be shown the way by several good welders who got me started. There is nothing more demoralising that starting out full of expectation only to burn holes in the job or end up with a result that you don't feel happy with……………………… the answer is practise.

Regards

Pete

cmperry4 · #7 19-12-04, 04:45

Well, I'm certainly lapping up the tips and information here avidly - I've been thinking of getting a MIG unit for work I expect I will have to do down the road. I've been eyeing those Italian Deca units that Princess Auto has.

(BTW., they have one on for $399.00 in their current flyer):
http://www.princessauto.com/_osn.cfm...CAN&OUTPUT=OSN
That's $100 off the regular price.

That one is:
" 115 Volt AC, 20 amp input
• 85 amp @ 20% duty cycle
• Automatic thermal shutdown protection
• 4 heat settings, variable wire speed; cold wire trigger
• Externally mounted torch and ground clamp output jacks for quick and easy switch from flux core wire to gas welding"

Might be a little light duty for some.

rob love · #8 19-12-04, 18:54

My 2 cents worth also supports the MIG over the TIG and ARC. I really wanted a large 250 A floor model, but after doing a bit of research, I settled on a Lincoln 170 Amp. It's portable (although a bit heavy), and I had to ask myself how often I ever turned the machine at work onto the high settings anyway. The welders I talked to all warned against the 110V models. The duty cycle is rather short and they said nothing is more infuriating than having the machine shut down in the middle of a weld. The 220V hasn't been a real problem either. If you are serious about restoring vehicles, you also need a decent air compressor, and again, 110V isn't going to cut it.
The Canadian tire Lincolns didn't look too bad until I added the cost of the gas kit into it, at which time the cost was about the same as the larger 220V which came with the regulater and gas set-up anyway.
The flux core welders look cheaper at first glance, but the spools of wire are 3 times as much to buy, so there aren't really any savings in the long run.
Lincoln also stands behind their products. Try and get some overseas company like Clarke to do that.
What I really wanted to avoid when I bought my welder was a repeat of my aircompressor purchase(s). My first one was a joke, and I have now a total of 4 compressors of varying sizes. But I think I got the MIG right the first time, it is still my only electric welder. Mind you, I still have to have the oxy-acetylene.
To sum up all this verbal meandering, I give my vote of confidence to a 220V mid range welder because:

1) It's portable; you could take it to a friends and hook it up with a suitable extension cord from his dryer outlet.
2) It has the gas kit included
3) It is a big name, north american company which will still be there when you hand this item down to your first born son
4) It has infinitely variable settings
5) Parts are available at the local welding shop; you aren't ordering them (as if they are ever going to come anyway) from overseas
6) It is large enough to do whatever you need to do; you won't have to go buy a bigger one in a year or two.

Regarding the gas cylinder: I paid $140 for my cylinder, which the gas company replaces by exchange whenever I need more. It doesn't take a mathematician to figure out which is cheaper (one time purchase at $140 or annual rental at $30) in the long run.

Another word of warning about some of those Princess auto 110V welders; house type plug ins are only rated for 15Amps, so how are you supposed to use a 20 Amp device out of it. True, you aren't going to the extreme amperage of that small machine that often, but even so, why work beyond the maximum rating of your circuits. Your insurance company sure isn't going to back you up if the worst case scenarios happen because of it.
Last big tip: Christmas is almost here. Just in case she hasn't bought you the big gift yet, an auto darkening helmet (around $150-250) is just about the best accessory you can get. If you have never used one, you don't know what you are missing. Once you have used one, you will never go back.

chris vickery · #9 19-12-04, 20:09

Rob, my two cents worth. Come on down and I'll teach you to MIG in a couple hours or less. Most of it is in the settings, some things being compensated for through experience.
I'd go with a name brand unit such as a Lincoln (personal favourite), although Miller makes real nice equipment as does ESAB.
Go to a dealer such as Canox, Air Liquide or Praxair and tell the sales guy what you're up to. Sometimes these guys get rental or lease returns which can be picked up for a great price over brand new and most certainly come with warranty.
Set yourself a budget and buy the biggest, baddest unit for the money. To give you an example, if I were going to spend $1000, I'd sooner buy a name brand, pro off-lease unit rather than a Canadian tire hobby welder for $500 to $600. I am a more serious user but in the long run, you get what you pay for and if ever you wanted to sell it, a more professional unit has more appeal than a hobby crappo unit. I'd definately stay away from the 110V and go for 220V. Another suggestion is to stay away from the all in one stick, mig, tig units as these seldom do what is claimed they can do.
For resto work, especially on stuff such as softskins, a MIG is the best for a novice although I use TIG wherever I can ( a lesson for another day)
The welder at my shop is a Hobart which we picked up as a lease return and got for about half the price of new.
Sometimes you can find real good deals in the Triad newspaper or local classifieds.

rob love · #10 19-12-04, 21:00

Chris
The ESAB was actually my intended purchase in the 250 size, but the dealers around here no longer carried their products, although they all could get them. Thats the model we had at work and I really liked it. The guys had the unit buy them a second mig welder, a Lincoln 250, with all the bells and whistles, so they wouldn't have to keep changing the ESAB's setup between steel and the aluminum spoolgun. It wasn't too long before they were back to using the ESAB for both aluminim and steel. Not to cut down the Lincoln, as I mentioned in the previous post, it's what I use, but the ESAB is just so much more industrial.
Good tip on the lease back returns or the exchanged for bigger equipment. You really can get top of the line equipment at about half the price.

chris vickery · #11 19-12-04, 22:30

Rob, you are right about the ESAB equipment. Personally I like Lincoln products but I think that the ESAB is the cadillac and if given the choice and budget it would be the way that I would go too. Unfortunately, Lincoln is the most popular and available almost everywhere whereas the ESAB being a more industrial machine is limited to industrial suppliers only. Not everyone has good access to a supplier nearby. Not really a problem for those of us with a well equipped and stocked shop but potentially a problem for some.
I recently took a TIG course at the local college and all their machines were ESAB. Real nice.
I've always bought the best that money or budget would allow when it comes to any tool purchase. You get what you pay for rings true most of the time. It's nice to have options down the road for those so inclined to get a little more adventurous.
Nothing like burning a few dozen Ni rods on some armour plate...

cmperry4 · #12 20-12-04, 07:51

I think I'm learning that lesson - the garage I have has a nice big electrical panel, lots of outlets, and even two 220V outlets, but all the 110V circuits are 15-amp breakers. Even on a dedicated circuit my compressor most of the time is popping the breaker when it kicks in - much of a nuisance when underneath the vehicle to run out of air for the tool and have to crawl out to go to the breaker panel to reset it.

May have to ask the landlady if I can have a higher-amp breaker put in for that circuit.

It certainly gives me pause to consider a choice of welder - with the 220V available, that's the route I can go when the time comes.

herr-pear · #13 20-12-04, 17:17

A lot of compressor motors can be wired for either 110 OR 220. The change is simple, just switch a couple of wires on the motor and the instructions are either on the data plate or inside the wiring cover. If yours is such and you change it to 220 that will end your breaker-popping problem. Hope this helps.

Roger in Vegas

Bob Carriere · #14 20-12-04, 20:54

I never seen one question get so much and so fast all the info one could dream of.......

First of all congratulation on the selling job to the better half of your marriage.......

Let me cut to the chase..... we have yet to meet and have a Xmas libation...but... I have an almost brandnew Lincoln 170 Mig with gas....... and you are welcome to try your hand at it...... if fact weather permitting you can come to my palce and use the darn thing while I watch and drink beer.... might even learn a trick or two from you. the Lincoln is portable since is has wheels but you would need a crane to lift the sucker in a pickup...I know.

All the advice you received is right on. I still have my old Sears stick welder.... which I am hardly using anymore..... I usually take it out of the corner whent he neighbour has to weld back a 3/8 rusted plate back on the snow plow.

As to learning you need a few good books.. a few video and the time and scrap metal to practice, practice, practice......

I have used a Sears Mig for over 5 years... the 20 amps 110v type and it served me well in lighter stuff but did not have the gas shielding attachements...... biggest bitch... it cuts out all the time in hot weather.... very frustrating. If one want to be practical a good brand name smaller Mig can handle about 80% of what you will need on a CMP, works up to 1/8 or so. If you plan to do some real body sheet metal stuff you need the gasshielding..... I have yet to master the gas set up on mine and would welcome some friend to practice with. Most of my Mig has been with the flux core...cheaper, faster and by golly makes my welds almost look good. The machine doesn't make a welder but a mig sure helps raise your confidence.

BOC will have some sales special in the dull months of psot Xmas and into the Spring start up season.

Whatever you do..... do not buy until you try..... I can even dig out the small Sears unit if you wish to try it out......and if you feel like passing gas I have an Oxy-acetelyne as well... great for roasting weiners....... mine is used as a "Hot wrench" and for rough cutting........ I have welded a few items but I woudl need more practice.

Wiring your house for 220 with a welder plug is easy to do..... the same for installing a 20 amps plug for a small unit. Think gas if you are going to do sheet metal work.

You must have been one he** of a good boy to merit that welder.

Bob C.

RHClarke · #15 20-12-04, 22:26

Bob...Sometimes it pays to be both...My long-suffering wife is quite enthusiatic about the hobby - it keeps me out of the taverns (no leftover $). Besides, she is a fan of quid pro quo when it comes to hobbies. Unfortunately, her hobby is jewellry...

I am very interested in the comments about waiting for the year end sales or rental upgrades. I think this will be the path I will follow.

Thanks to all who offered advice and training sessions. I will be contacting both Bob and Bruce by PM to arrange visits.

Best of the season (for you PC types)
Merry Christmas (for the majority)

chris vickery · #16 21-12-04, 17:52

Rob
I like your comment regarding your wife's jewellry pechant as compared to your love of green things.
I think that I am in the same boat and usually find bribery to work most of the time. Fortunately, for me it seems to work out to about a 90 - 10 split in $ in my favour... Amazing what a few hundred bucks in the wife's direction will get you.

cmperry4 · #17 21-12-04, 19:56

My sympathies to the still-married. I've almost forgotten what it's like to share the family bank account. My indulgence in grown-up boys' toys is much better enabled by having a girlfriend on like years and life experience who only comes round weekends and is actually a pretty good sport about riding around in things like Land Rovers.

As for on-topic matters: I will examine my compressor to see if that step-up to 220V is possible, but I suspect not - it's one of those Coleman 5hp non-oiled jobs, so might has well keep the warranty intact for now, too.