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  #1  
Old 20-01-10, 06:04
Jason Ginn's Avatar
Jason Ginn Jason Ginn is offline
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Default Post-War British Ram Kangaroo Question

I was flipping through a booklet titled The British Tank: A Photographic History 1916-1986 by Lt. Col. (Retd.) George Forty and noticed an image of a Ram Kangaroo with a post-1949 British Census number on p.34. This image and the number of Kangaroo's on, or recently recovered from, UK ranges made me wonder if the number of Ram Kangaroo's retained and/or converted by the British for use in the peacetime army is known? Would these have served until replaced by the Saracen?

The census number on this APC is partially obscured on both the side and rear but what is visible is 67 ?R 43. Would it be possible to determine the missing letter in the registration and does this correspond to the earlier War Department number?

Thanks,
J
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  #2  
Old 20-01-10, 09:20
tankbarrell tankbarrell is offline
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I have Ram APC registration numbers in the batches:-
67ZR40 - 69ZR17 and 71ZR20 - 72ZR00.

This totals 200 vehicles which may just have been the quantity allocated or may indicate holdings at 1947.

Also listed are :-

Ram ARV Mk2
72ZR20 - 72ZR57 37 vehicles
23ZV72 - 23ZV82 10 vehicles

Ram 6 pdr gun tank
20ZV29 - 20ZV37 8 vehicles
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  #3  
Old 24-01-10, 04:15
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Jason Ginn Jason Ginn is offline
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Thanks for the info!

I just found Hanno and Bill's posts Here that shows other post-war APC's from this registration group. The images are probably all from the same source.

Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 08-12-19 at 13:58. Reason: fixed link
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  #4  
Old 30-01-10, 11:23
Roddy de Normann Roddy de Normann is offline
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Default Post-War Ram Kangaroos

Jason -

Interesting post that had me diving into my records...

UK Veh Census numbering changed from the wartime T No series to various Z references (ie ZR, ZT etc) between 1948 & 1950. Tank variants tended to use ZR. I have yet to find exact details of why, how or exactly when...

In 1944/45, a large number of Ram variants were struck off the Canadian Census and were either used on the UK mainland (training) or retained by 21 Army Gp...

Thanks to the Bovy Tank Museum Archives I can give you the following for Ram derivitives retained from the war:

Ram APCs (Mks I & II) -

67 ZR 40 - 69 ZR 17
71 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 00

Ram ARVs (Mk II) -

72 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 56

Ram II GPOs -

72 ZR 68 - 74 ZR 72
75 ZR 00 - 75 ZR 19
75 ZR 23 - 75 ZR 26

Details of 67 ZR 43 in your pic are:

Ex T-40701

Engine No: 124776

Initially listed as in 51 Armd Veh Depot on 4 Feb 53

Struck off Census Return for disposal to TW Ward, Sheffield on 19 Sep 56...

Perhaps more interesting is the wartime history of the same veh...

From Canadian Archives I have been able to put the following together:

CT. 40701 & CT. 40701T

Ram IID Contract CDLV 283

14th & A Sqn, 27th (Canadian) Army Tank Regiments (Calgary Regiment & Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

27 CAR 6 pdr Main Armament Serial No. L/17341

30 Apr 43 - UK. Veh with 14 CAR & noted in wksps during Comd Changeover Review of Holdings - Regt Papers, Can NA Microfilm T-21673, p.1079 -

20 Jul 43 - UK. Veh noted with A Sqn, 27 CAR & listed in monthly veh returns - Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12757 -

1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives




Hope this helps

Roddy de Normann
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  #5  
Old 31-01-10, 07:09
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Jason Ginn Jason Ginn is offline
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Wow!

This is awesome! I never could have imagined that someone would have this much info at hand!

Assuming that these registration number blocks are inclusive would it be accurate to say that that there were 544 or 545 Ram tanks allotted registration numbers under the 1947 system? These can be broken down as follows:

Ram APCs (Mks I & II) - Qty. 259

67 ZR 40 - 69 ZR 17
71 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 00

Ram ARVs (Mk II) - Qty. 47 (or 48)

72 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 56 (or 57)
23 ZV 72 - 23 ZV 82

Ram II GPOs - Qty. 229

72 ZR 68 - 74 ZR 72
75 ZR 00 - 75 ZR 19
75 ZR 23 - 75 ZR 26

Ram II 6 pdr gun tank - Qty. 9

20 ZV 29 - 20 ZV 37

A July 1945 Canadian Army accounting of Ram tanks held overseas shows that of the 1567 remaining after VE Day there were 849 in British stocks. Two years later it appears that this number had dwindled to about 545.

It seems 44 of the 849 (40 with 75mm guns and 4 O/P's) were transferred from British stocks to the Netherlands in 1947. The July 1945 doc referred to above indicates that there were 39 75mm equipped Ram II's in Canadian stock and 1 in British stock and the list on Clive's site contains at total of 40 75mm equipped tanks, but the 1947 census listing show 9 six pdr. gun tanks and no 75's, so all this seems to agree.

I imagine that a large portion of the unaccounted for vehicles (about 260) were sold off as scrap during 1946-47.


Quote:
Details of 67 ZR 43 in your pic are:

Ex T-40701

Engine No: 124776

Initially listed as in 51 Armd Veh Depot on 4 Feb 53

Struck off Census Return for disposal to TW Ward, Sheffield on 19 Sep 56...
I have had time for a little more research in the past week have learned that "A" vehicle cards are held at Bovington. Is this info held on one of these cards?

By chance do you know if it is possible to search the "A" vehicle cards using the old WD number or just by the the post-war census number? A bit O/T but I would love to be able to complete service history of Ram CT40892, a post-war British APC conversion brought back to Canada during 2004. It is listed as a cruiser held in Canadian Army stock overseas during June of 1945 and ended up on a range in the UK configured as a APC but that's about all I know for certain. I haven't had a chance to contact the Archivist at the Tank Museum to see if this type of search is possible but i guess if it isn't i can always use it as a excuse to go to see Bovington, and 250 vehicle cards!

See: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2060

Thanks again!

J

Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 08-12-19 at 14:01. Reason: fixed link
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  #6  
Old 03-02-10, 00:01
Roger Lucy Roger Lucy is offline
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Default Ram ARVs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Ginn View Post
Ram ARVs (Mk II) - Qty. 47 (or 48)

72 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 56 (or 57)
23 ZV 72 - 23 ZV 82
Did the British convert Ram IIs to ARVs? In all, Canada converted 50 Rams to ARVs, in 1943, but 38 were Ram Is (out of the 40 sent to the UK) and 12 Ram IIs.

Roger Lucy
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  #7  
Old 03-02-10, 05:12
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Jason Ginn Jason Ginn is offline
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I have attached the document I was referring to in my previous post. I believe Don Dingwall found it sand has passed it on to a few other folks.

You can see that on 28 July 1945 there were 8 Ram I and 2 Ram II ARV's held in Canadian stocks.

The same document shows that 28 Ram I and 12 Ram II ARV's had been previously transferred to the British.

Totals are:

Ram I ARV: qty.36
Ram II ARV: qty.14
Grand total 50

This list shows a total of 40 Mark I tanks but only 36 of these configured as ARV's. 1 is listed as salvage and 3 remain as cruisers. This 1945 document agrees with the Clive's detailed list on RamTank which contains records for 36 Ram Mark I ARV's held in Canadian stocks in January 1944. It gets interesting when you look a the details of the Ram II ARV's in Clives List. There are 15 in total, 14 of these are in Canadian Stocks as of January 1944 but the 15th, which is very definetly a ARV Mark II with Winch, (CT-159854) has the following entry:

"Jan 1944, shown as Struck Off Strength to the British delivered to 13 AFV Depot, Kegworth
Oct 1944, shown as Struck off Strength to British

KT, date unknown, shown as a Cruiser held by C Sqdn, 12 CAR (TRR) and named "Canadian"
KT, date unknown, shown as an ARV held by 12 CAR (TRR) and named "Canadian" "


I re-calculated the British census number block for the ARV's and, if the numbers are inclusive, i missed one. The new quantity should be:

Ram ARVs (Mk II) - Qty. 48 (or 49)

72 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 56 (or 57) qty. 37 (or 38)
23 ZV 72 - 23 ZV 82 qty. 11

This shows as discrepancy of 1 or 2 ARV's of all marks (depending on the census numbers) between 1946 and 1947.

Hanno mentions on the Sherman Register that the Netherlands acquired 2 Ram I's in 1946. Could these be the unaccounted for ARV's? It would be odd that of all the "A" vehicles in the Netherlands the Dutch would request (or accept) two obsolete 2 pdr equipped gun tanks when they were obviously after 75mm or greater equipped AFV's. If this were the case it would account for all Ram ARV's on the 1945 list.

Brian Baxter's book " Breakdown - A History of Recovery Vehicles in the British Army" states that the ARV Mark I was developed by the Experimental Recovery Section of the Director of Mechanical Maintenance in early 1942 at Arborfield. The ARV Mark I was envisioned to be built on each major AFV platform in use at the time.The Churchill was the first in use but some designs were discarded as unsuitable. Eventually the Grant, Ram, Sherman, Cromwell, Centaur and Cavalier were accepted and manufactured As ARV Mark I's. The Ram ARV Mark I was slightly different from the other's in that it retained its turret and was developed at Arborfield in co-operation with the Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps.

On p. 49 Baxter states that the winch equipped ARV Mk. II was developed in 1943 by the Experimental Recovery Section in the UK for three AFV platforms only. These were the Sherman, Churchill and Ram. Apparently the Ram was intended for use by Canadian units but was built to a common design. He goes on to state that 500 ARV Mark II's were ordered but only pilot models and a very few REME conversions were actually built before wars end.

On p. 74 he states that the Ram ARV Mark I was considered for issue to SP regiments of the Royal Artillery in 1954. This was apparently due to a shortage of Mark II ARV's in the post-war years.

I had always thought that the ARV Mark I and Mark II nomenclature referred to the variant of Ram tank but it appears that the designation refers specifically to the variant of recovery equipment fitted to a number of different AFV platforms, e.g. The Churchill ARV Mark I was built using Mark I and II infantry tanks as platforms.

It is interesting that the Ram ARV stayed in Royal Army stores as late as the mid 1950's.

I guess the question is were the Canadian ARV numbers based on the platform used for the conversion or the model of ARV created? It appears that 36 Ram Mark I cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration and 14 Ram Mark II cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration.

The photographic evidence of CT-159854 confirms that it is a Ram Mark II cruiser that has been converted to a ARV Mark II (with winch) but this may be the pilot model for the Mark II conversion.

It looks as though we have 51 ARV conversions of the Ram recorded. Possibly 50 ARV Mark 1's and 1 confirmed ARV Mark II.

Hope this helps,

J
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  #8  
Old 03-02-10, 10:31
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Jason,

Interesting thread you have started here!

1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Ginn View Post
I have attached the document I was referring to in my previous post. I believe Don Dingwall found it sand has passed it on to a few other folks.
Correct, and I shared it with the forum members in 2007:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
the official Ram tank holding listings only mention Gun Towers, Ammunition Carriers, Personnel Carriers and Wasp equipped turretless Rams.
Follow the link to see scans of the entire listings.

2)
Quote:
This 1945 document agrees with the Clive's detailed list on RamTank
Correct again, as Clive's list was based on the 1945 Ram tank holding listings.

3)
Quote:
Hanno mentions on the Sherman Register that the Netherlands acquired 2 Ram I's in 1946. Could these be the unaccounted for ARV's? It would be odd that of all the "A" vehicles in the Netherlands the Dutch would request (or accept) two obsolete 2 pdr equipped gun tanks when they were obviously after 75mm or greater equipped AFV's. If this were the case it would account for all Ram ARV's on the 1945 list.
Indeed at least one of the Rams in Netherlands Army stocks was a Ram I ARV I - we know for sure as the delapitated remains of one have been preserved. It was about the be scrapped after serving as a range target; luckily I was just in time to point out its significance so it was set apart from the other wrecks which were scrapped.

4)
Quote:
I guess the question is were the Canadian ARV numbers based on the platform used for the conversion or the model of ARV created? It appears that 36 Ram Mark I cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration and 14 Ram Mark II cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration.
The answer is that the Mk.'s designated the type of ARV, not the type of gun tank it was converted from.
So the ARV I was the basic recovery vehicle, indeed the Ram ARV I was an exception as all the other ARV I's shedded their turret.
The ARV II (see attached pics) was the proper recovery vehicle with a winch and a fixed, heavily armoured superstructure added.
Either type or ARV could be converted from either type of gun tank. It is important to differentiate between the gun types and the manufacturing details. Often features like the early suspension bogies with the centre top roller, hull side doors, auxiliary machine-gun turret etc, are associated with the Ram Mk.I. Untrue, the Ram Mk.I was fitted with a 2-pdr gun, while the Mk.II was fitted with a 6-pdr. gun. Must remind myself to send Clive that list of Ram manufacturing changes for inclusion on his website, as they clearly show those changes were much more gradual than the change from 2- to 6-pdr gun which led to the change in designation.

Hope this helps,
Hanno
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File Type: jpg RAM_ARV 11.jpg (44.2 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg 03858.jpg (19.8 KB, 67 views)
File Type: jpg RBuck24Dec08_001.jpg (54.0 KB, 63 views)
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  #9  
Old 14-02-10, 10:48
Roddy de Normann Roddy de Normann is offline
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Jason -

Apologies for not replying to you more quickly...

Ref CT. 40892...I have v little save for the following:

Ram IID Contract CDLV 283

Veh held against Central Canadian Stocks

- 15 Jul 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives

Not very helpfull I am afraid

Roddy
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  #10  
Old 14-02-10, 16:29
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charlie fitton charlie fitton is offline
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Default So -

...lets imagine that a guy won a BIG lottery and had an inclination...

Does someone out there actually have copies of the technical sheets , workshop instructions, and/or drawings that would be neede to re-creats either:

A sexton Kangaroo, or

A Ram ARV?
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  #11  
Old 14-02-10, 17:47
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie fitton View Post
Does someone out there actually have copies of the technical sheets , workshop instructions, and/or drawings that would be neede to re-creats either:

A sexton Kangaroo
Charlie,

I presume you mean a Priest Kangaroo? In that case see, my web page Kangaroos in Italy for a description of the "CONVERSION OF PRIEST TO TROOP CARRIER".

HTH,
Hanno
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  #12  
Old 04-05-20, 22:56
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Default Ram ARV Mk II RECT-159854

There may be some conflicting info in this thread, this is what I make of it:

Cruiser Tank, Ram Mk II, CT159854, Shop No.1399:
  • First assigned to 13 Tp, C Sqn, 12th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Three Rivers Regiment), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks. Named 'COBAULT' while a gun tank with 12 CAR. Records show it was at Worthing, UK with 12 CAR in March '43.
  • CT159854 was Struck Off Strength from Canadian Central Stocks to Central British Stocks in Jan 1944 and by 31 May 1945 under the WD number of 159854 had been converted as the pilot ARV II by the British. In photos this shows as RECT (Recovery Tank) 159854.
  • Also, as/at 31 May 1945, due shortages in British stocks of the Sherman, an order was placed to have 100 Ram Mk II tanks (out of their stock) converted into ARV II (based on this pilot model, RECT 159854). This order was subsequently cancelled in October 1945.

It seems this was the only Ram ARV II converted. David Herbert spotted the remains of one in a British scrapyard decades ago.

ct159854b.jpg file2469.jpg ct159854.jpg
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Old 05-05-20, 17:11
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Default Ram ARVII

Regarding Ram ARVII production,

There were definitely more than one built because I have seen the remains of two. Hopefully photos below, sorry that they are rather poor.

The more intact one was at Cashmore's scrap yard in south Wales in March 1981. Someone showed me a photo in a book about scrapping railway rolling stock (no idea which book but I seem to remember it was right at the back). I visited and managed to get in and take photos. I expressed an interest in buying it but was told it was too useful as an anchor point when winching scrap around the yard but they would let me know if it became available. A year later the yard had been cleared and when I found my previous contact he said that he didn't think I was serious. What was there was in reasonable condition but there was no visible army registration.

The destroyed one was on Sennybridge AT2 range in August 1988. It was totally destroyed but obviously not the same one as it still had its overhanging rear armour.

Adrian Barrell in post #2 of this thread gives post war registration numbers for 47 Ram ARVIIs. These numbers would have been issued against existing serviceable vehicles (in 1947) that were being renumbered from their wartime 'CT' numbers which would have been unchanged from when they were new gun tanks. The 'RE' prefix on what I assume to be the prototype CT159854, is not a conventional addition but I have seen Sherman V ARVs in Normandy with REC prefixes replacing the T so this is presumably a version of that. This all fits in with an order being raised in May 1945 to convert 100 vehicles but cancelled five months later. I do not have access to their record cards but if they exist they will give the 'CT' numbers against the post war style numbers and also disposal information which might be interesting.

I think it is safe to assume that at least 47 Ram ARVIIs were built and that 47 remained in service post 1947. They would have been very useful as they were faster than the Churchill ARVII but had the same winching ability though they were not as good in very heavy going.
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File Type: jpg IMG_2504.jpg (595.4 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2505.jpg (563.2 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2506.jpg (412.5 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2507.jpg (458.0 KB, 3 views)

Last edited by David Herbert; 13-05-20 at 22:46. Reason: Added the bit about Sherman V ARVs
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  #14  
Old 06-05-20, 02:43
david moore david moore is offline
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Default Cashmore of Newport scrap yard 1969

David - is this the photo you meant? From the book Steam for Scrap. Poor quality I'm afraid but it just shows the tank at the right of the picture. The caption says that it is one of three Sherman tanks sent to Cashmores and that they were flail tanks. The yard is (was) at Newport, Mon - at least it was Monmouthshire when I lived in Cardiff in the 60's!
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  #15  
Old 06-05-20, 09:37
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Default Cashmore's Scrapyard, Newport, 06/67

Quote:
Originally Posted by david moore View Post
David - is this the photo you meant? From the book Steam for Scrap. Poor quality I'm afraid but it just shows the tank at the right of the picture. The caption says that it is one of three Sherman tanks sent to Cashmores and that they were flail tanks. The yard is (was) at Newport, Mon - at least it was Monmouthshire when I lived in Cardiff in the 60's!
David, attached below is a slightly better version of your picture. With all those train enthusiasts taking pictures of rolling stock there muct be more pictures of those "army tanks" lurking in the background.

"British Rail Riddles Standard Class 5MT 73116, being scrapped in 1967. Death amindst the carnage for BR Riddles Standard Class "5MT" 4-6-0 No.73116 "Iseult" being torn apart at Cashmore's Scrapyard, Newport, 06/67."

BR_Riddles_Standard_Class_5MT_73116_(8255953496).jpg

Source: By Hugh Llewelyn - 73116Uploaded by Oxyman, CC BY-SA 2.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/inde...curid=24383308
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Old 06-05-20, 11:12
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Well done David and Hanno ! I hadn't expected it to found so quickly. Yes that's the photo, very sad to see the 5MT being cut up.

Judging by the shed and the crane in the background, the Ram is exactly where I saw it in 1981. It is obviously the same one as the 'modifications' are the same. When I visited Cashmores there was no suggestion of any other tanks so presumably they had long since been cut up. This one had only survived because they had used it as a dead weight to winch against. There were cables around both middle bogies with shackles on them and a huge winch at the base of the big crane in the background of the book photo. I wonder if the steam guys took any earlier photos ?

A lot of the big scrap dealers that got the big contracts to scrap the British railway system when it was radically cut back in the 1960s had previously cut up vast amounts of WW2 surplus armour. There are many stories of fields full of tanks etc being cut as there was simply no use for them once smaller friendly countries had been supplied. There must be photos of these in the UK similar to the photos that have come to light of the Deelan (? sorry Hanno) dump in Holland.

David
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