F60L Recent pics

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Ganmain Tony

Wonderful stuff fellows

Knew I could rely on you!!!

Terrific pictures Richard.... ..

Cheers Tony,
You should thank Steve for the photos, I am sure you can see it all now.
regards,
Richard

[Ganmain Tony]

My apologies to Steve and please pass on my thanks to him as well.

[Mike Cecil]

yes, Tony, that's the version I was referring to.

Mike C

[Ganmain Tony]

I realise this is not an engineering marvel, but I am happy with the result.

Did the copy of Max's TAC sign. Welding was not done by me as I do not own a welder.

Bob Hart one the maintenance blokes at Grain Corp was luckily out at our Coolamon site and more than happy to run a bead to attach the centre 'tail' to the plate.

All the bending, cutting, shaping and filing done by yours truly.

[Alex van de Wetering]

That looks really nice, Tony!. Good job

Now which one are you returning to Max?

[Tony Wheeler]

Here's an interesting background - woodgrain!

THE FORMATION SIGN OF 2ND DIVISION AIF, DURING THE 1939-45 WAR. THE SIGN WAS REPRODUCED IN WHITE ON A BLACK SQUARE. THE PHOTOGRAPH SHOWS THE SIGN REPRODUCED ON A PIECE OF FURNITURE IN THE POSSESSION OF THE DIVISIONAL COMMANDER AND WAS TAKEN AFTER THE WAR TO SHOW HOW THE SIGN HAD BEEN RENDERED.

[Tony Wheeler]

I notice the AWM have an original 2nd Div vehicle:

"This vehicle was used by the Australian Army during the Second World War. It served at least part of its career with the Second Australian Infantry Division and in Western Command."

Penguin is on yellow background here.

[Mike Cecil]

I don't fully remember the circumstances of the formation sign on that truck ... it is a long time ago that it was purchased from a Victorian enthusiast. The truck was in Castlemaine as the 'spare' at a factory before he purchased and restored it including a repaint. After several years driving, he agreed to selling it to the AWM. I seem to remember that there were remains of the formation sign that he then reproduced.

The canvas is also an original WW2 canopy that came with it when he bought it, although I think marked to another truck type.

Nice, original truck with a low mileage. It was a very worthwhile acquisition.

Mike C

[Ganmain Tony]

Now that truck is interesting...

Begs the question, what would go into the TAC sign holder?

The one attached to the front that appears to be off a Cab 13?

[Keith Webb]

Here's one of the cab 12 I took out at Mitchell several years ago.

[Mike Cecil]

Actually, the Unit sign should go in the 'tac sign holder', and they are the same holder for both Aust cab 12 and 13. The plate with the unit sign was reversible: it was supposed to have the word 'PASS' on the back, to be displayed when the vehicle was stopped on the side of the road and was NOT in need of assistance.

Dave placed an artillery Unit sign of his choice on the right guard, which was a common position, but the regs actually say that both signs at the front should be on the left side.

Technically, the bridge sign on B vehs should be in an irregularly shaped yellow area approximating 8 inches in diameter, but there again, were often simply circular.

There are some complexities, but that's basically how it was supposed to work (except for the good ole AIF(ME), who amalgamated the Unit & Formation signs onto a single sign in early 1942).

Regarding overseas vehicle deliveries into an Australian Port, prior to a ship's arrival with a known vehicle cargo, an assembly contract was raised with an appropriate assembler most often in the region of the port of delivery. (ie deliveries into Port of Brisbane went to an assembler in Brisbane, etc)

Mike C

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Actually, the Unit sign should go in the 'tac sign holder', and they are the same holder for both Aust cab 12 and 13.

...but they weren't always fitted so perhaps AWM could simply remove it to depict such a vehicle, in accordance with official instructions (which Tony may find less than amusing!):

"Where vehicles have not been fitted with holders and brackets to carry unit signs the manufacture of these may be dispensed with. Similarly the fitting of special bridge classification discs will not be attempted. Instead, the unit sign and bridge sign will be painted on mudguards....and thus labour and material will be saved."

Of course, now that you HAVE made a plate holder Tony, you're compelled to use it: "Where holders, however, are available they will be fitted."

For general interest, the relevant instruction for bridge signs:

"Vehicles will normally be issued with the bridge sign painted on them. If this has not been done it is the duty of the unit to paint the sign on the guard. As it has been found in practice that the present yellow disc tends to nullify the camouflage effect, the size and shape of the yellow background (upon which the figures are painted in black) will be irregular, in accordance with the example."

As Mike says Tony you have some interesting possibilities with the formation sign, the instructions for which are open to interpretation. I quite like the way AWM have handled it on this truck, and I imagine this rendition would have been more common than the black background, which as Mike suggests would be all but impossible to stencil.

[Mike Cecil]

Just to correct one aspect of the AWM's Cab 12: the formation, unit and bridge signs (and the unit sign holder) were on the truck when purchased. They were painted by the former owner, not the AWM.

With the unit sign plate holder fitted, the unit sign should technically be there, not painted onto the vehicle.

Mike C

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ganmain Tony

I have been making that TAC sign holder as a copy from the original I got from Max. I would like to put a divisional marking in it of some relevance to my grandfather but the question was... which one? Grandpa was originally with the 21st light horse after doing some research, it seems they were shifted all over the place and re-assigned repeatedly to different units during the war. This made it very difficult pick one sign & my poor old grandfather simply cant remember.

If you're looking for "correctness" Tony you'll need to paint the Divisional sign on the guard, and use the plate holder for the unit sign. Which gives you another problem - what unit sign to use! I can't make out the unit serial on your carrier image, but the background looks to be two-colour horizontal...possibly green over blue denoting Divisional Cavalry Regt...? Mike will be of more help than me here.

Another option would be to choose a different period of your grandfather's service and depict the Division and unit in which he served at that time. That would enable you to choose the period he considers most significant himself, if it doesn't happen to be the one in the photo. If he's a bit hazy on the details you can always get them from his service record. If it happens to be after mid '44 you can use a fractionated unit sign, which allows you to display his actual unit designation. Anyway, just a suggestion, and it may solve your penguin problems!

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

If it happens to be after mid '44 you can use a fractionated unit sign, which allows you to display his actual unit designation.

Just to clarify - the fractionated system introduced in mid-'44 displayed the actual unit designation, eg. 2/12th Field Regiment in the pic below, rather than a coded number as used previously. Full identification was given by the background colour (denoting arm of service) and the coded lower number (denoting unit type), eg:

2-12 on Red & Blue Horizontal (Artillery) over 74 (Fd. Regt.) = 2/12th Field Regiment
2-12 on Red (Infantry) over 56 (Inf. Bn.) = 2/12th Battalion
2-12 on Blue (Engineers) over 60 (Fd. Coy.) = 2/12th Field Company
2-12 on Brown (Medical) over 57 (Fd. Amb.) = 2/12th Field Ambulance

[Private_collector]

Like this one I did for my truck.

In this case it is 29/46 Inf. Btn.
Sorry, I don't have a photo of the 'PASS' side at hand just now.

[Ganmain Tony]

Thanks to both Tony's and Mike for some very handy information.

Still building the whole picture here but have some supportive evidence that the choice of TAC sign holder is correct.

I was going through my disassembly note's along with some unused or broken bolts in containers, when I found the one that contained the passenger side headlight bolts.

In it I found this...the piece on the left.

That makes two Cab 12's with this style of TAC holder Ive seen. I noticed there is a picture of one on here that also has this TAC holder.

The 12 Cab we got the original TAC holder off up at Max's also had a bridge plate attached where Ive got mine. I also dont think it was a coincidence that the holes between the B plate and the guard lined up exactly.

I remember someone on this forum saying "Throw NOTHING away"

[Ganmain Tony]

After re-examining that picture of the Bren Gun Carrier on the beach, the unit designation (I think) has to be either 82 or 92.

Im tending to lean towards 92

I agree with your assessment Tony W, the colour should be (most likely) green over blue as they were considered to be a cavalry regiment.

Im 99% sure the picture was taken in 1942, down around Nowra NSW.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ganmain Tony

After re-examining that picture of the Bren Gun Carrier on the beach, the unit designation (I think) has to be either 82 or 92.

Im tending to lean towards 92

Im 99% sure the picture was taken in 1942, down around Nowra NSW.

Hi Tony,

92 was my best guess too, however that would indicate Tasmania Force post Jan '43 so I dismissed it. However I notice the image file is named 7 Mile Beach, and there's a 7 Mile Beach near Hobart as well as Nowra. I don't suppose that could be a possibility...?

I dismissed 82 because it's clearly on a horizontally divided background and the only possibility there is Arty.

As mentioned you may need your grandfather's service record to determine the unit. I found my father's service record invaluable in figuring out his numerous postings with the RAAF and RAF.

[Mike Cecil]

Tonys,

92 ... Green over Blue Horizontally divided ... Divisional Cavalry Regiment within an Infantry Division, as of May 1942. Revised July 1942 to read 'Div Cav Regt or Recce Bn' with same Unit sign number and background colours. (The number first issued for AMF Inf Div Recce Units was '41' with a blue/green background. This was amended in May '42 to '92', with same background )

There were several uses of both 92 and 82 within the AMF during the war, with various coloured backgrounds, but this is the one that fits the best. Others included such things as decontamination units - and I can't see them using MG carriers.

The question is: is it applicable to a Ford 3 ton GS? The answer is yes: like most mobile units, the Div Cav units had their own integral support transport, albeit in very small numbers.

So, Ganmain Tony, a very applicable Unit sign to go in your Unit sign holder on your Cab 12 GS. Perhaps you might also consider a 2-tone (base colour plus one disruptive colour) disruptive cam pattern to top it off, with the 2 Div Formation sign within the disruptive colour?

Mike C

[Ganmain Tony]

To Mike Cecil and Tony Wheeler for the information on the Division and TAC sign.

As you probably saw on the Anzac Day thread I posted some pictures but I'll put a couple here to update this specific thread.


I ran out of time prior to the day and occasionally you do have to focus a little on Grand parents, family, partners and freinds.

So I took a gamble.....maybe ones made out of fridge magnet material might work...???

Had a frustrating time with the makers - but the result was worth the hassle I thought.

What do you blokes think?

[Bob McNeill]

If those that matter didn,t notice, how can we criticise, well done.

[Ganmain Tony]

It really was a case of do this - or not have them in time.

At first I thought they were a bit lame, but they are beginning to grow on me.

[Scrivo18]

They look good mate

Top marks for making the effort.... Can always up date latter

Scrivo

[Private_collector]

I say it's a bloody clever idea!

Also means your chosen signage can change as desired.

You're 'an ideas man' GT.

[Ganmain Tony]

That makes me feel a HEAP better in all honesty...

The only downside is the penguin can"t hang on (we discovered) when youre doing this....

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Tony - the image you posted of the cluster, is that one of mine? There is obviously a problem with the spedometer needle.

Bob

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, Your truck looks bloody smart, as does the penguin.
Well done!

[Ganmain Tony]

Thanks Lynn, appreciate it..

Bob the stickers are yours.

But the entire refurbishment was done by yours truly.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Tony - when you refurbished your speedometer, did you check that the odometer drive cog was free, as these are frequently frozen causing the worm drive to bottom out.

Bob