Weights.....

[RichardT10829]

Ok i have been scourcing a 5tonne (gross) trailler for moving carriers, but i have run into a wall, i have noticed that our American and Canadian Cousins are towing these things behind 4x4's but i have been advised that in the UK this would not be able to be done as the carrier would exceed the Maxx gross weight of any SUV / 4x4

what is the kerbside weight / dry weight of a Bren carrier ?


Richard

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally Posted by RichardT10829

what is the kerbside weight / dry weight of a Bren carrier ?

For towing purposes, if you count on a dead weight of approximately 7,500 lbs, you won't go wrong. Full tanks and a lot of extra kit obviously fleshes this out a bit, and of course T-16s are heavier by a good bit.

Yes, you can tow them behind a number of suitably-rigged North American 3/4-ton pickup trucks (ask Stewart Loy about this!), but nothing smaller is advised or really legal; many use "tilt 'n' loads" for this job, where available.

[RichardT10829]

its ok i just spoken to a pal of mine who runs a recovery firm and yet again the UK fails to impress me, basically due to the weight of the load it wont matter if its on a trailler towed by a 4x4 the driver would need a HGV licence and tachograph fitted, and would be governed under drivers hours etc etc etc so i cant tow this thing anywhere ! looks like i may need to find a haulage firm

the manuals i have just checked state 3.75 tonnes - 4.5 tonnes (the latter being combat weight) it anoys me as a transit van is circa 3.5 tonnes and i could tow this no problems

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Richard,

See Carrier transport trailers for the type of transport which is increasingly popular in the Netherlands, as it can be driven on a car plus trailer license.



The trick here is that while one can drive a vehicle up to 3.500 kgs here on a regular car license, a tractor-trailor combination like the above with a gross weigth of 7.500 kgs can be driven on a car plus trailer license, which is much cheaper and easier to qualify for than a truck driver´s license.

I´m not up to par with UK regulations, but I know older drivers have grandfathered rights to drive a truck up to 7.500 kgs gross weight on a regular car driver´s license. If you fall in that category, a beavertail truck would be the way to go.

While many sites list a weight of 3.75 tons for the Universal Carrier, this webpage has a comprehensive listing of Carrier weights, depending on type they range from 4 to 4.25 tons (4.318 kg if those are UK/long tons). The T16 is listed at 7,756 lbs and 9,500 lbs (gross) or 4.309 kg.

HTH,
Hanno

[RichardT10829]

thanks Hanno thats a great help

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

The trick here is that while one can drive a vehicle up to 3.500 kgs here on a regular car license, a tractor-trailor combination like the above with a gross weigth of 7.500 kgs can be driven on a car plus trailer license, which is much cheaper and easier to qualify for than a truck driver´s license.

On europa.eu I found:

European Driving Licence: Differences between existing and future legislation
Reference: MEMO/06/143 Date: 27/03/2006

Directive 91/439/EEC
Cars (category B+E): No weight limit for trailers in this category leading to very long and heavy combinations within this category Cars (category B+E)

Future Directive
A weight limit of 3500 kg for trailers in this category is introduced. Combinations with trailers exceeding this weight will fall in category C1+E

[RichardT10829]

thats great thanks Hanno

[Grant Bowker]

I understand your frustrations with silly regulations.

My understanding of the laws in Ontario is that any trailer over 10000 pounds requires a class A license, the same one required for the largest tractor trailer combinations on the road, regardless of the towing vehicle. Also, I believe that in the strictest legal sense the weight of such a trailer has to be included in the weight of the towing vehicle for registration/taxation purposes (actually any trailer of greater than about 7000 pounds, it's not defined by trailer GVWR). In turn, this will make the towing vehicle subject to the CVOR (Commercial Vehicle Operators Regisatration) system which makes the operator subject to daily inspection and duty hours logging. There are some exemptions to the CVOR rules to permit personal use of the vehicle, for example to go home after work. I have registered my truck to avoid the CVOR and my trailer is light enough to only just avoid having to include the weight.

Having said all of this, there are many people in Ontario who operate pickup trucks with heavy trailers without complying with the rules as I understand them, apparently without consequence.

I think there is also an exemption for travel trailers that leaves us with the ludicrous situation that a pickup towing a 16000 pound 5th wheel travel trailer is treated like a car for licensing of the vehicle and driver, but the same pickup towing a 16000 pound 5th wheel flatbed (with a carrier or other CMP) is treated like a large commercial A-train semi trailer rig.

[carrierbarry]

No you can't tow a carrier on a trailer in the UK you will be stopped.
I have a light weight Flatbed lorry with Beavertail. max 7.5 tons.

If we don't load up the carrier its not overweight, its fine it dos'nt look over weight and sits on the back fine. The fun is always loading, you need a bit of bottle to drive it up, as you can't see the lorry until its to late.

we also had to make special ramps.

Regards

Barry
London

[S LATHERON]

Hi Richard
I mentioned two military vehicle clubs in a previous reply direct to you. There are at least a couple of Carrier Owners in the North east of England that I can suggest you contact. One in Darlington and One at Brompton on Swale. They may be worth a visit to discuss how they transport there carriers using Hired haulage to attend shows.Both users also show and run heavy military vehicles so in theory the Carrier can be Towed on a trailer behind one of these,Your license and truck Gross Train weight permitting.
May i add a note of caution and I apologize in advance if it is obvious to you and many others. On "You tube" and OLD CMP net there have been pictures of carriers Falling side ways off FLAT BED vehicles, a Slide back style transporter in the first instance where the offending carrier ended up on its side just after being painted . The second one on its way to a rally fell sideways off a low deck trailer behind a heavy 4x4. I guess the co efficient of friction between the thin edge of steel tracks and metal decks side to side is NIL. Please allow a margin for sufficient chains in your WEIGHT calculations. Apart from the risk to life and limb of wandering carriers the ensuing insurance problems and the potential damage to your newly restored carrier are all to obvious.
Good luck in your search

[cletrac (RIP)]

Oh, the benefits of being a Saskatchewan farmer! With an ordinary drivers license I can drive our tandem truck with air brakes hauling 15 tonnes and towing a 10000 pound trailer. For a bigger trailer I need a class 1 license like commercial drivers. With our truck and grain trailer we gross 53.5 tonnes with a payload of 40 tonnes. Hmm, I'd need a couple more axles to haul a Leopard tank!

[RichardT10829]

S.Latherton i recall the reply, i was seaching to see if it possible to tow your own carrier rather than spend an arm and a leg to go show your vehicle, clearly our pants country have made this not possible (again without great expense). i have seen some of the carrier mishaps on youtube, and specific length chains crossed at front and rear were my thoughts, this and the carrier sat on wooden plants for the tracks to bite into, and the bed of the truck to bite into the underside were also considerations

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by RichardT10829

i have seen some of the carrier mishaps on youtube, and specific length chains crossed at front and rear were my thoughts, this and the carrier sat on wooden plants for the tracks to bite into, and the bed of the truck to bite into the underside were also considerations

Richard,

Some lengths of old rubber conveyor belt are ideal to have between the tracks and truck bed, once chained down on them it will resist any movement.
I work alongside a heavy haulage business, and it is normal for them to do this with metal on metal.

Re. transporting, a friend of mine used to transport his Windsor carrier on a small Bedford TK, with purpose built body. It fell below 7.5 tons loaded. Much more convenient, and cheaper in the long run, than paying for transport every time you want to go out.

[RichardT10829]

yeah that may well be an option, it only matters really to get her back, i was going to register her for road use, so i can roll along the coast on a summers day every now and again.

[George McKenzie]

I have had a class #1 license for driving the bigrigs along time.The big difference is If the trailer has air brakes you need a Class one .In western Canada you see hundereds of 3/4 tons pulling up to 30 ft fifth wheel trailers with heavey loads .They seam to get away with it but they are in trouble when they have to make a quick stop The catch is these trailers have electric brakes . I have a 8 ton Fruehauf military trailer that was used to haul the carriers .It is towed with a jeep and has air brakes that my 3/4 ton would take offence to. I will haul my carrier with a tandem 7000 lb axel car trailer rated at 14000 lb George

[Barry Churcher]

Grant, if I understand properly how you registered your truck I have a correction. In Ontario your plates must be sufficient to include the truck, trailer and load on the trailer and you will probably need a "D" licence. If you are over 4500 km you need a CVOR (free)as you stated. A log must be filled out if you are over 100 miles ??? not km. from your home base. It is also necessary to have a yearly inspection on the truck and the trailer. I am not clear on this last point but I was told by an MOT inspector that if you have the yearly inspection sticker on your truck every trailer you tow must also have the sticker. I question this but who knows. Just having a sticker on a box trailer doesn't make sense to me. I will try to get this clarified. Now you can also get a different "A" licence that you can't drive a tractor trailer but you are good to go with these 1 ton dumps and landscape trailers.
Cheers,
Barry