Radar Trailer

[Tony Smith]

Does anyone recognise this type of Radar Trailer? It's Canadian and I think it's WW2 era. Did the Canadians use them?

The data plate says it made by Truck Engineering Limited, of Woodstock, Ontario. I can't read the Model type without paint stripper.

They have dual wheels front and rear and 7.50-20 tyres. There is one access door on the left side. The interior on these two trailers is bare, so I don't know what they contained.

Beside being Canadian made, they also look right behind a CMP. Here is an AWM pic of several behind 3 ton CMPs in a Vehicle Park.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Does anyone recognise this type of Radar Trailer? It's Canadian and I think it's WW2 era. Did the Canadians use them?

Tony,

Here's what I could find in Data Book of Wheeled Vehicles - Army Transport 1939-1945 (edited by David Fletcher):

Trailer, 5 ton 4 whld.
Radar A/A No.3 Mk.I
(Also known as A.P.F. Trailer)
Canadian Supply. S/M 2828.
A 4 wheeled drop frame trailer with turntable steering and Warner Electric brakes. Tyres are 7.50-20 (34x7) Singles front and twin rear.
Weights
F.axle 3 tons 18 cwt.
R.axle 5 tons 7 cwt
Gross 9 tons 5 cwt.
_________________________________

Trailer, 5 ton 4 whld.
Radar A/A No.4 Mk.I
(Also known as Z.P.I. Trailer)
Canadian Supply. S/M 2828.
A 4 wheeled drop frame trailer with turntable steering and Warner Electric brakes. Tyres are 9.00-20 twins all round.
Weights:- Laden 6 tons 19 cwt.
_________________________________

Prime movers for above trailers were special F.W.D. H.A.R. 4x4 lorries.

Not sure your trailers are actually the same as those mentioned above, but the they are the only Canadian-built radar trailers I could find documented.

Hope this helps,
Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

"X 4784491 4785290 - SM 2828 TRAILER 4 WH. FOR G.L. MK. III EQUIP. TRUCK ENG. CO.
THIS WAS FOR THE 1943-SUPPLIED CANADIAN RADAR TRAIN: 1. FWD HAR-01 GS WITH GENERATOR SET + 5-TON 4-WHEELED TRAILER RADAR A/A NO.3 MK.1 OR “APF TRAILER” AND 2. FWD HAR-01 GS + 5-TON 4-WHEELED TRAILER RADAR A/A NO.4 MK.1 “P1 TRAILER”; 3. CHEVROLET C.60 [L?] WINCH TRUCK WITH CABLES. WAS THERE ALSO A C.15A GS TRUCK AS WELL IN THE “TRAIN”?"

[Tony Smith]

Reference to this train is curious as the AWM holds registration records for groups of 2 FWD tractors and 2 Radar trailers with a Chev CMP with winch, all registered in blocks of this combination. The trailers are listed as made by Bantford (another builder of CMP bodies) and as Trailer "A" and "B". But the AWM pic I've found shows these "Truck Engineering" trailers towed by a C60/F60. Interestingly, the C60L Chevs in the "train" have Canadian serial numbers, and are recorded as having 10.50-16 tyres!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Radar Train Census Numbers

Herewith my census number listings for the FWD/Chevrolet radar trains. I was interested in the C60L chassis numbers! To what extent do these rcords list chassis/engine details as this could be a goldmine of data?

Note the proximity of these two C60Ls, produced a short time from each other, possibly both being on the line at the same time:

2844312662 ENGINE # PR3,816,319
2844312671 ENGINE # PR3,816,380

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I was interested in the C60L chassis numbers! To what extent do these rcords list chassis/engine details as this could be a goldmine of data?

Note the proximity of these two C60Ls, produced a short time from each other, possibly both being on the line at the same time:

2844312662 ENGINE # PR3,816,319
2844312671 ENGINE # PR3,816,380

The AWM records are indeed a goldmine and are being prospected for all sorts of nuggets of info, but until we digest it a bit more, the Official Secrets Act still applies! Just a tidbit to whet your appetite, David!
Any pictures of the complete Canadian Radar Train?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Speechless! 1942 Model Fox ACs assembled by Melbourne Plant, supplied under Australian Contract # 278 CA 652! I printed off the list but my eyes have got screwed up trying to read the GMC 270 engine numbers!

I have never yet seen a photo of the Radar Train, and wonder if Bart had any in his collection? I suspect though that the Imperial War Museum has some shots and will check in due course.

Of course we in the UK have the Freedom of Information Act now, so it's shareware/freeware/everywhere.

I hope to completely update my Ford/Chev/GMC/Dodge/Fargo contract & census number listing in due course after studying all the BRITISH record cars for contracts held by the Tank Museum in Bovington, Dorset which is about 40 miles or so away. There should be some platinum nuggets in there including overseas theatre numbers and also Australian/NZ etc. Supply/Mechanical overseas contracts deliveries.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Interestingly, the C60L Chevs in the "train" have Canadian serial numbers, and are recorded as having 10.50-16 tyres!

Looking closely at the AWM photo above, the trucks don't have roof hatches, suggesting they may be supplied assembled by Canada, not GMH built. The tyres also look smaller than 10.50-20, could it actually be correct that they were fitted with 16inch wheels? If these trailers actually are rated at over 9 tons gross, they may have required 16in wheels to gear down the tow vehicle to cope with the load.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Looking closely at the AWM photo above, the trucks don't have roof hatches, suggesting they may be supplied assembled by Canada, not GMH built.

Tony, remember the "CAB with hatched roof - optional all models"?



Source: Interesting pic of CMP

[Tony Smith]

Hanno, it may be optional on Canadian trucks, but I haven't seen it being optional on Australian trucks. As far as I'm aware, Aussie production (Ford and GM-H) ALL had roof hatches.

[cliff]

here are 3 AWM photos of the FWD HAR's

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

In 1945 the Royal Swedish Army bought one recce-radar type 293 M from UK. Another 20 were bought in 1947. They were made by Marconi in Chelmsford.

Photo: Radar 293 M.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

In 1947 one fire direction radar was bought from UK. It was called AA No 3 Mk 4 and used the same type of trailer as the recce radar.

Another 45 of a later model AA No 3 Mk 7 were bought in 1947 but they were not delivered until 1950.

They were made by British Thomson-Houston Co, Ltd.

Photo: AA No 3 Mk 7.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Speaking of Canadian-built radar trailers - see The Canadian History of Radar.

H.

[alamotex]

You may have since clarified the facts pertaining to the Canadian radar trailers illustrated on this forum site. I am currently bringing to a close my research into AA gunlaying radar GL III(c) which was indeed manufactured in Canada .The photos are of the ZPI trailer as distinct from the APF trailer , which required two trucks and a generator to complete the entire assembly. I made note of the fact that these trailers were manufactured in Woodstock Ontario whereas the radars were assembled in Toronto. Go to my posting on [url]www.WWII Reenacting.co.uk Forum Index Royal Artillery AA gun laying radar (GL) and download the 2 items. 600 of these sets were shipped from Canada to the UK and less than half were deployed there ,the rest being transhipped to other war zones. Interestingly, the GL III (c) was not deployed with the Canadian mobile AA regiments that were part of Overlord. Has anyone undertaken to restore one of these ?

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by alamotex
Has anyone undertaken to restore one of these ?

The "yellow one" at the head of this thread has been recovered and will be given a cosmetic restoration, but as mentioned, there is no remains of the electronic gear inside, nor of the impressive radar array on the roof!
The pic below is yours, cropped to display here. Any further info you may have on the trailers, or indeed the whole radar train, would be most welcome Alamotex (BTW, we prefer real names here on this forum)

[Tony Smith]

Do you have any detail pics of the mounting arrangement for the roof mounted array? The Green Van has the remains of some brackets on the roof, but the Yellow one does not. Both of these vans have an angle iron extension protruding from the rear of the chassis. I initially thought these may have been a postwar addition "Bustle-Rack", but I wonder if they could have been for a winch to raise and lower the radar array?

[alamotex]

Hi Tony Personally I do not have the design details you are seeking ,but I can direct you to the inventory of reports issued by the Radio Branch of the National Research Council where you may find something useful. NRC Radio Branch exercised overall responcibility for design ,but manufacturing was the responcibility of REL.
There are two series of reports PRA-1 through 135 and PRB 1 through 152. These are listed by subject and are accessable to the public (subject to archival restrictions).I cannot recall the links to these lists but my printed copy has an URL http://cat.cisti-icisti.nrc-cnrc.ca My personal visit to NRC CISTI in Ottawa was not a huge success. Good Luck Brian

[alamotex]

Hi Tony.......Among my papers I found a reference that may be of interest giving some historical background to your find. Retrieval of info from the net is not my strong suite but the article is titled " Canadian Radar Detachment on loan to Australian Military forces " www.dnd.ca/commelec/brhistory/anxc_e htm . At the top of my printed page are the words Annex C - World War II Ground Radar. Brian

[Joe Costello]

I have recently come across photos of this equipment in use by 1 Canadian Radio Location Unit in 1943 at the Canadian Archives. I have posted them along with Brian Mendes' explaination of what they show on my website, www.rcsigs.ca. The photos show the full detachment(?) with towing vehicles, trailers, etc. From the page there is also a link to some unit history. Comments welcome!!!

[Bob Carriere]

Way back when .... in the early 70s..... when doing junk yards on Sunday mornings looking for old Dodge power wagons parts........

....such trailers existed in a junk yards outside of Kemptville which was also the source of the Churchill tank (bridge layer) now at the CWM........ at least one full set of trailers.....

..also in St Hyacinthe PQ...... in a junk yard precursor to the SAILS army surplus store...... they had at least 2 or 3 sets of such trailers....complete with seperate generators and at least a dozen large 40/41 Packard staff cars........also Cadillac engined full tracked snow machines with totally enclosed cabs... central driving position......

...all gone now ....but you may still see some of it on the bottom of imported Tuna cans from Japan....... or Toyota bumpers.

Trailer going price was $1000 and he would strip the top parts for you so you could use it for a farm trailer...... these trailers had interesting independent suspensions!!!!!

Bob C.

[alamotex]

Hi Tony I found another item pertaining to the Canadians who went to OZ to accompany the delivery of these radars in WW II. See attached file (if I did it right ) Brian

[hanesterry]

Hi Tony: I recognize the trailer you show in your photo as a ZPI (Zone Position Indicator) later known I believe as AA No. 4 Mk. 1 . I was a technician in the Canadian Army during WW II and worked on these units along with their companion trailer the APF's (Accurate position Finders). Together they made up the GL Mk 3C anit-aircraft radar.

I worked on these units in Canada and Australia where I was attached to the Australian Army along with 72 other officers, warrant officers and senior NCO's. We had to tropicalize the sets as they had not been designed to withstand tropical conditions. I believe some were installed around the Australian coast but they did not see action.

One was taken to New Guinea but was not installed.

Where did you get this empty shell and what are you going to do with it? I have the same picture of the group of units. I wonder how we both got it? Those trucks are not the FWD's but are the Chev cable trucks which were part of the convoy .They were known as "Gutless wonders" as they were underpowered.

I attach a pic of the ZPI with the antenna raised.

I cannot seem to attach more than one photo but I have others which I will attach to an ordinary e-mail if you like. what is your E-mail address? Mine is <hanesjt@sympatico.ca>

Regards Terry Hanes

[Mike Cecil]

REF the AWM 126 page showing the GM A/Car chassis posted 28-2-05 that David H got so excited about:

No, just the chassis: they were used as the basis of mobile cranes after the Rhino project went belly-up, not for A'Cars.

There are indeed many little gems in the AWM126 series.

Mike C

[alamotex]

Mike C My friends might accuse me of putting you up to posting your recent item on the thread started by Tony Smith back in 24.02.05. It comes on the eve of the publication of a piece that I contributed to the IEEE Canadian Review Autumn 2012 issue. Followers of this thread might like to log on to the web edition of the forementioned piece at www.ieee.ca/canrev/index.html Click on the cover photo in the top left corner and a link to the full article will appear below the photo as Hi res PDF.file. 6.0.MB. Scroll down to the item titled LAST ONE STANDING.

I have been unsuccessful in getting any useful information about the former WOODSTOCK, ONTARIO company TRUCK ENGINEERING LTD where the radar trailers were manufactured during WW II

Cheers Brian ( aka Alamotex)

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Brian

Just read the article surprisingly a non-technical more historical description of these 1st mobile fire directory units. Here is the link straight to the Journal http://www.ieee.ca/canrev/cr69/IEEEC...eview_no69.pdf .

I have followed this thread and the discussion of radar with interest as my father was an electrical engineer working on the development of Radar for the US Navy during the Second World War. Working on both ship board and ground mobile units.

Now I'll have to go digging through back issues of the IEEE Journal to see what other bits of historical interest may be hiding there.

Cheers and Thanks for sharing this link Phil

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Here is the link straight to the Journal

Link doesn't work for me.

[alamotex]

Looks as if you are right ,Tony. Neither the link provided by me nor the direct link suggested by Phil worked when tried them. Could be that the ieee link was a one off for my personal use only. Will send PM as a follow up. Brian

[alamotex]

Checked this URL later and it did work OK
http://www.ieee.ca/canrev/cr69/IEEEC...eview_no69.pdf

Cheer Brian

[Ian Johns]

This our Radar trailer we just recieved.