Canadian Experimental Armoured cars - 1935

[Roger Lucy]

I am researching the history of the two experimental armoured cars produced for the Canadian Army by Ford and General Motors Canada in 1935. Except for their rear bogies, the vehicles largely used Canadian made automotive components, while their mild steel bodies were based on the Crossley 6 wheeler. Mechanically, the cars were judged a great success, but the project was shelved in light rapidly evolving armoured car technology, and no follow-on vehicles were made.
The two vehicles were then allocated the Royal Canadian Dragoons and Lord Stathcona’s Horse for training purposes. I have found ample material on the cars’ development and initial tests but little on their service with the RCDs or the LSH or with other units (Manitoba Dragoons, DYRCH or DCRCH) which may have used them for training in the early war years. I would be grateful if anyone has any information on the cars’ subsequent careers (and ultimate fates). The final result should see light of day as one of Service Publications’ Weapons of War series, and any contribution will, of course, receive full acknowledgment.
Roger

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Roger;

There isn't much written about them in either of two books written on the history of the RCD or XII Manitoba Dragoons.

From - 'The Spur and The Sprocket, The Story of the Royal Canadian Dragoons' - there is this:

"In January 1937 two officers, Brevet Major F.F. Worthington, P.P.C.L.I. and Lieutenant J.H. Larocque, went to England for a course with the Royal Tank Corps at Bovington, Dorset. Writing back, both these officers reported that armoured fighting vehicles were replacing horse in British cavalry regiments despite agonized protests from dedicated horsemen. Canada half-heartedly adopted the idea and four mock-up armoured cars were made by General Motors and Ford of Canada, of which two went to the R.C.D. and two went to the Ld.S.H. where cavalrymen regarded them with suspicion and distaste."

Further on there is this - "Our column, writes Major-General C.C. Mann, consisted of the squadron horses....and a rather unique little mechanical transport column containing an armoured car, a horse trailer, a travelling-kitchen trailer, two light lorries, two reconnaissance cars and two privately-owned cars..." - this being a reference to "A" Sqn, R.C.D. road move from St. Jean to Petawawa in July, 1937

Still, further on, there is this - "By the spring of 1938 "A" Squadron was carrying out training with cavalry, token tanks and armoured cars.."

The quotes above are the only mention of pre-war armoured cars concerning the R.C.D. or Ld.S.H. The history of Lord Strathcona's Horse does not mention them at all.

From - 'XII Manitoba Dragoons: A Tribute' - there is this mention of pre-war armoured cars from 1936:

"In Winnipeg, the 2nd Armoured Car Regiment, headquartered at Minto Armoury received its first Armoured Car; it was a mock-up armoured car produced by Dominion Bridge which possessed no motor and was manually pulled onto the drill floor of the Armoury. The troopers of this Regiment would practise mounting and dismounting this car" - again, there is no other mention of pre-war armoured cars.

Its not much.

Cheers

[gcrossley]

Hi Roger,

In our museum we have a VHS copy of a film of one of the cars in training use with the Manitoba Dragoons.

Scenes show troops in a mix of military and civilan clothing loading cloth ammunition belts and firing the hull-mounted vickers, and the vehicle driving about an open field and negotiating a shallow ditch.

I don't know which of the two it is, but could have another look.

We have a single photo, showing Cpl Cuddie of the FGH standing by the car. From the uniform items, I would expect it was taken in Shilo in the summer of 1940.

Gord

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Roger, have you ever looked at the remains of the armoured hull at the auto wrecker in Milford south of Picton? These parts, to my knowlege have never been identified but could well be from one of these armoured cars.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Hi Gord,

Can I get a high-res scan of the photo?

Hi Bruce,

Any idea if the wrecker's yard is still there? How would one find it?

Clive

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Clive, I haven't been there recently but can't imagine why the yard wouldn't still be there. The office and garage are on the east side of the main road through Milford, about 10 minutes south of Picton. The owners were pretty good about letting you walk in their yard, to the west, which has probably 50 acres of old cars. There are a dozen CMP's sprinkled in. The hull parts were in the nearest row, left off the laneway in. I can't find pictures but recall two parts, angular, painted khaki with nickel or stainless steel welds. One part had a rounded sheet metal fender still attached and the other a 3" by 8' vision port that closed with an scissor mechanism. If they indeed belonged to one of these early armoured cars, it may be worth looking for a commercial chassis in the same yard that perhaps these parts came from.

[gcrossley]

Clive, I have sent a high res scan to you via email.

For the video, we have had it transferred to DVD, and I would like to post a couple of images here.

Does anyone know how to capture still images from a DVD? What software (hopefully free) to use?

Gord

[Roger Lucy]

Thank you everyone for your replies. The armoured car which went to Manitoba was the Ford, and it would seem that, by February 1941, it had been sent back east again to join the Dragoons Chevrolet armoured car. The two cars were attached to the RCD's HQ Squadron and accompanied the unit when it transferred to Borden at the end of May 1941. Thereafter I have yet to ascertain what finally happened to them, nor why the LHS car was sent back east - could it be because the LSH was converted from Mechanized Cavalry to a Motor-Cycle regiment?.

If the pieces at the Milford yard are indeed from one of the 1935 cars, its probably from the Ford which had welded armour. I attach a picture of the Foird showing its fender and visons slot - Bruce does it look anything like what you recall seeing there?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Roger Lucy
Thereafter I have yet to ascertain what finally happened to them, nor why the LHS car was sent back east - could it be because the LSH was converted from Mechanized Cavalry to a Motor-Cycle regiment?.

Hi Roger;

Just a note regarding the WE of an M/C Regt. - there was no establishment in it for armoured cars.

Cheers

[Roger Lucy]

Mark,
Thank you.
By the way, it seems my attmept to post a close up of the Ford failed.
Roger

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I'd say one part may be the engine cover and the other either a part of the rear hull or possibly the turret. If this is really the Ford and you know which chassis to look for I wondwer if the rest is still there? By the way, the yard is called Minakers.

[Tboss]

We are looking for data on the armoured production before 1922-23 here in Canada. It would be interesting to view any photos of the yard remains referred to. If the yard flotsam is from way back then, we are interested in pining down some actual measurements. Or the lightning strike of a body/chassis. Thanks.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Here is their web-site
http://groups.msn.com/MinakersAutoParts/_whatsnew.msnw

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I wish I knew more about these vehicles. This is the site that I used to visit:

http://www.rcaca.org/AFV-1935-Armd-Cars.htm

This is my version:

'In 1934, Ford and General Motors were each invited to build an experimental armoured car to undergo testing by the Permanent Force. The deal involved the government paying for the materials and chassis while the companies paid for the design work and assembly. In the end the government paid $2,500.00 compared to Ford and GM of Canada who each paid $9,000.00 to build their respective cars. The Ford differed from the Chevrolet in that it had dual wheels on the second and third axles, a V-8 gasoline engine as against the Chevrolet 6-cylinder, and the armour plating was welded rather than riveted and bolted. Both armoured cars had a maximum speed of 30 mph, and the Ford was able to do 8 m.p.h. in reverse. The Ford was registered in Ontario with 822 C and the Chevrolet 830 C. It was intended that each of the vehicles would be armed with the Vickers Mk. VI medium machine gun but these were delayed as the feed mechanisms were on the wrong side, having been originally designed by the British for right hand drive vehicles. The cars underwent testing at Camp Petawawa, Ontario with the Royal Canadian Dragoons where it was found that both performed satisfactorily. The ten-wheel Ford performed the best in off-road tests and the six-wheel Chevrolet excelled on roads. Orders for further cars failed to materialise because of budgetary limitations and the Ford experimental Armoured Car was shipped to Winnipeg, Manitoba for use by the Lord Strathcona’s Horse. The Chevrolet remained with the RCD Other than the handful of Carden-Loyd carriers obtained in 1931 these two armoured cars were the only armoured vehicle procurements by the PF until the acquisition of two British Vickers Mk. VI B Light Tanks in 1938. However many design features lent themselves to future developments.'

I have yet to find the DND file relating to them...perhaps Clive knows where it is in the NA?

Here is something from another file on the WD-pattern trucks:

'The first fateful meeting of the DND, GM of Canada and Ford Motor Company of Canada was held 15 December 1936. Carmichael and Campbell [of Ford adn GM of Canada] called upon the MGO Major-General Caldwell, with Colonel Carr and assistant being present. Campbell and Carmichael agreed to co-operate with the DND in regard to the development of ‘War Office pattern short wheelbase vehicles’, and agreed to pool resources to achieve this with minimum capital outlay. The ‘auto men’ reminded that they had expended in time and labour a sum equivalent to approximately C$8,500 in developing ‘the armoured car’ ... It was hoped that the DND did not require co-operation on the same financial basis'.

There is a photo of the Ford in WHEELS & TRACKS # 25, as well as of both cars as posted. I am seeking high-res or quality photos of the two cars please for suitable remuneration!!

[servicepub (RIP)]

I have yet to find the DND file relating to them...perhaps Clive knows where it is in the NA?

I do indeed and the file references have been passed to Roger who used them as the basis for his monograph. The book is now 90% complete and it tells a great story.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Clive, inasmuch as the file relates to these earliest of Canadian WD-spec vehicles, I am very interested in a copy of correspondence, etc. between the DND and Ford/GM.

[servicepub (RIP)]

David,
There are 2 boxes of correspondance, charts, drawings, etc...
Your best bet is to take a weeks holiday (at least) and come to Ottawa. I have a spare room and PC and you can use my place as a base.
Alternatively, depending on where you are in the UK, we can swap residences and cars during a mutually convenient time. You visit Canada and I'll visit England.

Clive

[Roger Lucy]

I have just been looking through AHQ-38-72-335, there are masses of correspondence there from 1936-40 between DND and Ford and GM on the topic of 15 and 30 CWT WD spec vehicles. But little new on the subject of the armoured cars beyond the fact that - as David points out - both companies had learnt to get firmer committments from DND before agreeing to undertake pilot projects. By the way, once my monograph comes out, that RCAC website will need a few corrections in its entry on the armoured cars. I would say DND collaboration with Ford and GM goes back well before 1934.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I would say DND collaboration with Ford and GM goes back well before 1934.

I would suggest as far back as 1928?

[Roger Lucy]

Clive Law and I recently paid a visit to Minacker's yard. Alas, we could not find any trace of the possible Armoured Car remains (or for that matter any old ford truck chassis). There was little that was military except for the relics of three CMPs. It may be that what Bruce Parker saw is now buried under other debris, or we simply did find the part of the haystack where that particular needle lay. Here is a photo of one of the better of the CMPs

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Roger, did it look like the yard had seen any 'reduction' or 'consolidation' in recent years?

Last time I was there (6-7 years ago) it spanned acres and had the remains of about a dozen CMP's. The 'armoured car' part were in the main yard, across the road from the office and garage. Go down the entrance lane and turn left down the first isle. The parts were in a bunch of odds and ends in a flat section toward the end of this isle. Did you ask the owner? He thinks they are his "Otter parts".

[servicepub (RIP)]

Bruce,
Unfortunately we arrived on the afternoon that Minakers was closed. We went to the yard across the road and slipped under (or around) the barrier. It sounds like we went down the aisle you describe but there were a lot of aisles!!! No sign of anything remotely like our sought after vehicle.

Clive

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

AFAIK, we (The RCD) had them both here at one point.

From the Archives of the RCD.

Please, no reproductions permitted.

regards
D

[Darrell Zinck]

Another. Same restriction on the pic, please.

regards
D

[Darrell Zinck]

and another.

Same restriction, please.

regards
D

[Darrell Zinck]

and one last one.

Please view and not use.

Thanx.

regards
D

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Darrell, how can a mere mortal such as myself obtain:
1. Copies of the photos and
2. Permission to reproduce if necessary?

They are of great interest and in any event I must thank you for revealing them for us to see.

[Darrell Zinck]

Dearest Mortal man!!

I am not the one to seek permission or copies from but a request in writing by snail mail can be sent to the Regt'l Archives Section @

Commanding Officer
The Royal Canadian Dragoons
CFB Petawawa
PO Box 9999 Stn Main
Petawawa Ontario
K8H-2X3
Canada

I understand they are quite accomodating to a request such as yours.

regards
D

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

A polite letter and offer of donation will be sent in due course!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I am not sure that a letter ever got through. I have e mailed the C/O and the Webmaster from the RCD site but to no avail. There are two photos on the site that could be used. They are out of copyright of course, but if you cannot contact and ask for permission, is it permissible to use them as they are out of copyright and give credit? This mortal man tries to do things by the book and with sensitivity and politeness.

I see that one of your photos Darrell was submitted by someone else to another site and is visible on it. These photos clearly get around!