Timken and Banjo

[Lynn Eades]

I may stand to be corrected but, I believe both companies made both types and Im sure Mr Manual will be able to expand on this.
One of the parts books goes into a detailed description of the various axle componentry. Infact the parts book lists serial numbers(motor) of Ford 15A trucks that were built with Ford type front axles and G.M. type rear axles. It also mentions G.M. diffs in 30s, 60Ss, 60Ls, and gts. as well as conversion kits for changing over to Ford axles. Does that help?

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

The vertically split axle housing design was a strictly a Ford design used from the model "T" days and before...
The banjo style was designed by Timken-Detroit Axle Corp and used in every type of vehicle imaginable ,according to my master Timken -Detroit axle manual from pre 1940.....EXCEPT Ford......
Although both designs used Timken bearings I believe the Aussies call the Ford design the "Timken" axle,witch is incorrect terminology..but they can be forgiven for this error ,which can be attributed to not enough Fosters and too many Vegemite fumes....

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I wanted to add some information that I have accumulated:

"Marmon-Herrington manufactured conversions on Ford chassis as well as officially approved all-wheel drive chassis direct. In 1935 M.-H. established Canadian Traction Company Limited in Windsor, Ontario, for the conversion of Canadian Ford chassis, both cars and trucks. These used the M.-H. front axle which was based either on the standard Ford rear axle and differential or a Timken-Detroit Axle Corporation axle, with M.-H.’s own design of transfer case for a power split between the front and rear axles. It appears that even during the war the Marmon-Herrington conversions used Ford front axles, modified, and the company’s own transfer cases".

"Sid Swallow has commented that the pilot Ford 4 x 2 trucks used parts procured with the benefit of automotive suppliers’ parts books including Timken front axles, and the mudguards from a generator trailer manufacturer in Montreal". The reason for the use of Timken and thus GM style [i.e. as used by GM] was because the standard 1939 and even the stronger 1940 Ford front axles were not man enough for the DND-pattern trucks given the experience with the 1938 GS Chevrolet units.

" It is suggested that the pilot 4 x 4 F.15A truck in common with early production trucks was equipped with Chevrolet differentials on Chevrolet axles, with the Marmon-Herrington transfer case and Rzeppa C.V.J. [Constant Velocity joints] steering ends. The pilot C.15A may well have been similarly equipped although the Chevrolet-badged production units had Timken-Detroit Axle Corporation transfer case and Bendix-Weiss Universal joints [U.V.J.] steering ends. However, Ford’s Rzeppa design U.V.J. and axle shafts as fitted by to the front of their 4 x 4 Trucks were interchangeable with the Bendix-Weiss components, but Ottawa suggested that both right- and left-assemblies of the same type be fitted rather than mix-and-match! Sid Swallow in another interview stated that 47 early Ford F.15A trucks had a G.M. (McKinnon?) banjo-type rear axle and Ford split-type front axle, though other early Fords had banjo-type front and rear axles of G.M. manufacture. These must have used U.S.-sourced Rzeppa and Bendix-Weiss C.V. joints American Bendix Corporation], in Marmon-Herrington design front axles manufactured in Canada". The jury is still out incidentally as to whether there was ever a Chevrolet C15A pilot/prototype truck, although as there was most definitely a pilot C-GT, logic dictates that there must have been a pilot C15A that preceded it or accompanied it. My suggestion is that in view of Ford of Windsor's lead in the matter the GM truck would have used the same components as the Ford, and then McKinnon Industries Limited [St Catherines, Ontario] entered a licence agreement with GM's axle division in Flint, Michigan I think it was, who in turn used Timken-Detroit designs/components in their transfer cases for GMC and Chevrolet military trucks built in Pontiac, Michigan. Perhaps it can be clarified in due course whether GM produced their own transfer cases in the US under licence from T-D or used bought-in components. I can however state that McKinnons were approached by the DND in 1940 to produce indigenous 4 x 4 components and this they did using imported technology from the US. The Axle Division certainly produced series production transfer cases but T-D cases were also used.

GMC TRUCKS U.S.]:

CCW-353: 5-SPEED CLARK GEARBOX; TRANSFER CASE: ONE-SPEED MODIFIED GMC 591321; I-BEAM FRONT AXLE: TIMKEN-DETROIT MODEL 31116-H-X4 AS USED ON MODELS AC-502 AND CC-351; REAR AXLES, BANJO, TANDEM BOGIE WITH TORQUE RODS CHEVROLET 3665609 & 3665610.

ACK-353 AND ACKWX–353 USED TIMKEN-DETROIT SPLIT-TYPE AXLES FRONT AND REAR SERIES 31000.

CCKW[X]-352/253: 5-SPEED CLARK GEARBOX; TRANSFER CASE: 2-SPEED CHEVROLET 3659994; FRONT AXLE G.M. FULL-FLOATING WITH BANJO-TYPE HOUSING WITH BENDIX-WEISS OR RZEPPA C.V. JOINTS [NOTE!!] ; CHEVROLET 3663017 OR TIMKEN-DETROIT [MODEL 31116-H-X4?]/WISCONSIN T-79 TRANSFER CASE AND SPLIT-TYPE AXLES; REAR AXLES FULL-FLOATING, BANJO CHEVROLET 3665609 & 3665610.

The GMC and Chevrolet transfer cases were all listed as being manufactured by "Chevrolet". This must be when the Wisconsin part was not used. I think that this suggests that the Axle Division multi-sourced from either their own plant or from T-D Axle Corp.

A very meaty and not completely answered area this! Contributions/corrections welcome please.

One final comment is whether Ford of Windsor manufactured the Marmon-Herrington transfer cases under licence or bought them in from Canadian Traction, and thus from Detroit?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Have you the motor numbers please for the listed Fords with Ford front axles and Chevrolet rears? I would be interested to tie this up with the "47" listed. I always want to rely on first-hand evidence where possible to clarify/dispute recollections made 50 years after the event. Can you please list the numbers for me either on this forum or sento my e mail address please if not too much trouble?

[Keith Webb]

Hi David
Usually when we refer to Timken axles we're talking about the split type used on the Studebaker US6 trucks here, not CMPs.
As for the Fosters and Vegemite, I "resemble" those remarks...

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Glad that I brought in the evidence about the GMC trucks, i.e. equivalent of the Stude, which used timken axles.

Vegemite is sold here in Blighty I have found recently...sold by Kraft. We also have a range of Aussie beers brewed here by Interbrew Limited of Luton, Bedfordshire.

[Lynn Eades]

Following numbers,
2g-5791F
5954
6252
6323
6333
6339
6404
6447
6448
6451
6493
6528
6529
6532-6539
6560-6572
6574
6575
6589
6602
6627
6639
6640
6644
6649
6651
6653
6655
6661
6681 Of course all these numbers have the 2G prefix and the F suffix

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

These trucks would appear to be earlyish 1941 Models. However as such this discounts them from being to British order and thus must have been either Canadian domestic or overseas orders. I favour the latter though because of general evidence. Of course totalling these units identifies these as the "47 units" that Dr Gregg referred to.

This now means I have a whole load of rewriting to do! I have to alter my thesis to suit plus some other works because it is evident that despite Dr Gregg's suggestion by implication that these 47 trucks were early 1940 MODELS, they were not and could not have been assembled in the UK in the earliest days of DND-pattern assembly at Southampton and Dagengham. Thanks for that one....I have been able to correct a misnomer just in time.

Oh! I forgot to mention Lynn that the answer to your query about both companies supplying is that they had no intention of doing so ab initio...Ford had led the Cab design and that lent itself to an agreement that Ford would supply for instance all cabs, including to GM at Oshawa, and GM in turn would supply axles and diffs where necessary because as an aside it was felt that the 1939 and even the better 1940 Ford axles were not strong enough. This contrasts with the Timken-Detroit design that GM bought in for the 1937-on COE trucks*. Fords realised that they needed a COE axle design because of the layout of the cab to satisfy War office Specifications that the DND slavlishly adhered to. Fords did not initially have anything to offer and it was then convenient to split production and supply. Then with war under way and shipping, parts supplies and general ramoing up of demand problems, this splitting of supplies was exposed as unworkable and as regards axle/diff/transfer case and steering compoent supplies the intial agreement was relaxed and this resulted in the mixing and matching that has been evidenced by the pasrts books until matters settled down.


*GM had thus a wealth of experience on both sides of the border with COE truck axles and steering, compared with Fords. The evidence shows that Windsor had considerable problems with trying to get a suitable axle design for their pilot orders from 1937 through 1940. GM could however just call on parts bins or standard components from Timken-Detroit.