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Canvas doors
In the thread about the Sunshine Roof Tony Wheeler brings up the subject of the removable canvas doors on Australian CMPs, I thought it might be interesting to make up a list of types which used these, usually late production vehicles.
Here's an incomplete list: 134" types such as tippers, 400 gallon tankers, the Ford ambulance... 158" types, many post 1944 160" types, Tankers 101" types, the CGT No9 only two of which were delivered. Does anyone know why the 15cwt types were not modified this way? There are a few late production F15As around with standard steel doors.
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Film maker 42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains 42 FGT No9 (Aust) 42 F15 Keith Webb Macleod, Victoria Australia Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern |
#2
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Quote:
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One of the original Australian CMP hunters. Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 27-02-14 at 16:10. Reason: formatting |
#3
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F60s
Interesting as the main purpose of the chassis extension on the long wheelbase CMPs was to help with the turning circle with a trailer.
The obvious question is whether the structure on the back is original.
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Film maker 42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains 42 FGT No9 (Aust) 42 F15 Keith Webb Macleod, Victoria Australia Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern |
#4
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Were there really so many Keith? In my own travels I've seen very few, in fact at present I can only bring to mind four examples, three C60L and one F60L. As opposed to the ubiquitous late production 60S, of which I can bring to mind dozens and dozens, particularly Fords.
Interestingly though I can bring to mind several late production F60L with coach built cabs, and it only now occurs to me there may be a tie in here with our late production FGT chassis overhead cranes of recent discussion, which all have a fabricated rear cab and roof, and all but one have a fabricated windscreen frame. It's as if there was a shortage of these panels late in the war, or perhaps they were built post war...? Do we have any explanation for the coach built cabs? If so it may apply to the FGT/F22 vehicles under discussion as well.
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One of the original Australian CMP hunters. Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 27-02-14 at 16:09. Reason: formatting |
#5
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158"
You're right, when I think about it, it was more the medium wheelbase types which ties in with Mike's comment about specialist CMPs which were being buit by that stage.
Will have to go through my pics in more detail to see which ones I have found. The coach built cabs are quite interesting, possibly due to one or a series of post-war contracts for large civvy fleets. The PMG coach built twin cabs are an interesting example of that. Shame we didn't do more of the fabulous conversions done by other countries, notably the Dutch.
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Film maker 42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains 42 FGT No9 (Aust) 42 F15 Keith Webb Macleod, Victoria Australia Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern |
#6
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For some reason the switch to large steering ends and steering box was simultaneously and universally accompanied by cab modification, specifically removable canvas doors. We find no early production chassis with canvas doors, and no late production chassis with steel doors, with the sole exception once again of the 15 cwt. Why this should be so is unclear, but what IS clear is that canvas doors were only fitted to heavy duty vehicles, and steel doors were only fitted to light duty vehicles. If we accept that as a valid principle then it makes perfect sense, because the 15 cwt was definitely not intended for heavy duty. In fact having driven one on the road now I'm not even sure it was intended to leave the base!
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One of the original Australian CMP hunters. |
#7
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RE canvas doors:
See my last post under 'Blitz Sun Roof'. Mike C |
#8
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Hi Tony,
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Good luck finding the RAAF ledgers. Ive been told they went 'missing' along time ago when the lent them to someone and the were never returned. Foolishly, it seems the didnt keep track of who they lent them to. Id be happy to be proved wrong on that one! Cheers, Ian.
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Ian Fawbert 1942 Script Willys MB, sn:131175 1942 Script Ford GPW, sn:11730 1944 Ford GPW 1943 #3 GMH jeep trailer 1945 #4 GMH, RAAF jeep Trailer SOLD: Ford F15A. Aust. #? Office Body. www.vintageengines.net |
#9
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Tony: missed your query first time around, but picked it up in Ian's post. 208140 is indeed within the registration block issued to the RAAF. The number was issued to a 'Truck, Heavy, Wireless/Telegraphy', a Ford F60S, taken on charge 14 November 1944, and disposed of on 7 August 1956.
To clarify Ian's comments, the RAAF vehicle registers were originally located at RAAF Support Command, Logistics Management Unit, St Kilda Road, Melbourne. They were relocated to the RAAF Museum in the mid-1990s, but were recalled by the Support Command in the late 1990s, against the wishes of the RAAF Museum staff. Soon after, they went missing and have not been seen since. The RAAF Museum librarian was extremely upset by their loss. As far as I am aware from speaking with her, there is no record of them having been 'lent' to anyone, and this is the first I've heard of that: the more likely scenario is they were 'round filed' during a clean-up/move: the unit certainly didn't appreciate what they were holding when I accessed them in the late 1980s and early 1990s, until I informed them of their historical value. In the mid-1990s, I was instrumental in having them moved to the RAAF Museum (I actually recommended they be forwarded to the AWM, to be held along with the Army registers). I still have the correspondence. Fortunately, I made copious notes from the registers when I had access. Those records were then transcribed to my registrations database: a HUGE and time-consuming job! Mike C |
#10
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Thanks Ian and Mike, I forgot to mention it was a RAAF vehicle. It's one I saved from the scrappy in Drouin last year, which I subsequently managed to ID from a 40 year old photo taken by Keith in Noojee, about 50 km away. Interesting to find it was a Wireless truck, do we have any pics of these?
Tragic to lose the RAAF vehicle registers after they'd actually been found and placed in safe hands. They should never have been relinquished back to dickhead staffers at Vic Barracks where they'd be virtually guaranteed to wind up lost or round filed. Champion effort by you Mike to transcribe the records, that would have been a herculean task.
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One of the original Australian CMP hunters. Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 27-02-14 at 16:09. Reason: formatting |
#11
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Quote:
But they were allowed to copy details. This was in the pre-digital camera days, so they had to sit down and take notes. Sadly, time was lacking to record all vehicle histories..... My experience with serving military is that anything struck off charge is of no value to them, except when it can be used as a range target H.
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#12
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Yes, Hanno, there are similar tails of the vehicle history cards in Australia: most were binned when the system was computerized. Only the basic registration details remain in the registers in most cases (which are now at the AWM), whereas the history cards recorded most movements of a registered item between units, storage, rebuild, and so on. Alas, mostly gone...
Most vehicle log books went the same way, though I see the most recent round of disposals includes the log book: quite a departure from what happened previously. The Truck Heavy Wireless/Telegraphy was a composite bodied (wood/Masonite/caneite) van with a rear door and steps. There were a number parked at RAAF Point Cook under the trees lining the main road for many years: Keith, do you have any monochromes of those? Mike C |
#13
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Point Cook vehicles
Quote:
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Film maker 42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains 42 FGT No9 (Aust) 42 F15 Keith Webb Macleod, Victoria Australia Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern |
#14
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Pic
The remains of the frame looks about the right shape.
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Film maker 42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains 42 FGT No9 (Aust) 42 F15 Keith Webb Macleod, Victoria Australia Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern |
#15
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doors
I have a 1944 equipment memorandum, in it the canvas doors are detailed .
The book suggests the doors were a optional thing , it does not mention specific models of CMP's . The little book belongs to P Growse .. I should return it I think one of those RAAF wireless vans was sold at the BAndianna museum cleanout, around 15 years ago, it was in faded RAAF livery .... it was very complete . who bought it ?
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1940 cab 11 C8 1940 Morris-Commercial PU 1941 Morris-Commercial CS8 1940 Chev. 15cwt GS Van ( Aust.) 1942-45 Jeep salad |
#16
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Little book
A. Growse might be more interested in it these days...
That one in the auction is safely in a shed on the Murray these days, one of the lowest mileage CMPs around.
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Film maker 42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains 42 FGT No9 (Aust) 42 F15 Keith Webb Macleod, Victoria Australia Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern |
#17
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Thanks, Mike, nice spotting!
MGO Equipment Memorandum No13, Sept 1944 discusses the application/conversion/retrofitting of existing CMP steel doors to canvas doors at workshop level (4th Echelon repairs), due to shortages of maintenance components for steel doors, rather than as a response to climatic conditions. This is the application of the canvas door kit I mentioned earlier, for retrofitting to existing vehicles (pre-44 pattern cabs). In such cases, the fitting was optional as it depended on factors such as extent of damage to be repaired, availability of spares, desirability of the owner unit to have the doors replaced, etc. While it does not mention specific CMP models, it does state that 'this changeover will occur on 15cwt and 3 ton WD vehicles when undergoing 4th Echelon repairs'. In other words, the vehicle had to be pretty banged up before such a changeover was going to occur, and then only if the damage warranted it. New production vehicles were equipped with the 44 pattern cab as standard. MGO EM 13 also contains the jeep winch entry (another thread....), and the autopulse electric fuel pump to overcome vapour locking. There is an ex-RAAF Heavy Wireless/Telegraphy CMP truck done up as a 'field cash office' at the Pay Corps Museum at Watsonia Barracks: such a shame it is not at the RAAF Museum done up as what it actually is! (The Pay Corps Museum knows, but.....) I'm sure Alan would welcome the return of the booklet to the Growse Family Military Library!! Mike C |
#18
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G'day folks,
If I may stumble in here; I wonder if the rationale for CMP canvas doors is the same with my International K5, as pictured? I wonder if I'm safe to assume that it fell into the category of "15cwt and 3 ton WD vehicles when undergoing 4th Echelon repairs"? I know that in other areas of military history, one should never assume, and I guess the same is true with these vehicles?! Mine also has a canvas roof, and I haven't been able to find any information about the use thereof. Cheers, Matt
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1942 International K5 3-ton truck ARN 43362 1940 Holden-bodied Chevrolet staff-car 1941 Holden-bodied Chevrolet staff car Last edited by Matt Austin; 17-03-14 at 04:56. Reason: Added quote |
#19
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Canvas doors
They were a tropical mod so they could be removed for better ventilation so that wouldn't apply to the Inter. The canvas 'Sunshine' roof is also on many 15cwt CMPs, as Mike C has mentioned previously.
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Film maker 42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains 42 FGT No9 (Aust) 42 F15 Keith Webb Macleod, Victoria Australia Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern |
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