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  #1  
Old 04-09-18, 00:53
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Alastair McMurray
 
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Default CTL marked British type road wheel seals?

I’m stripping down and cleaning a NOS Canadian marked road wheel made by ford and dated 1944. Strangely it has the British type seal assemblies which are marked ford 44 with a CTL number but the bearing spacer is marked ford 44 with a TL number. Did MK2* Universals change over to British type seals or is this a case of Canadian wheel production to help out British manufacturing?

Also interesting is that as someone mentioned before, British wheel bearings are none standard with the outer race circa 1mm narrower than the inner where as Canadian / US bearings are normal. This Canadian wheel with the CTL marked seal assemblies has narrower seal carriers to compensate for the use of Canadian bearings!
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  #2  
Old 04-09-18, 07:07
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Pictures would help Alistair.
There is the early seal assembly and the later improved type seal. The early one sits fairly flat at the bearing bore area, while the later one sits proud and has more than one seal. The early one has a ring type seal track while the later one is integral with a large dia. flange which has another seal running against the inner face (no pictures!, sorry)
Aside from the bronze wheel bearings, I have found two types;
One is early use and consists of of 2 semi thrust ball bearings (which must be fitted in pairs and the right way around)These can fall apart The center spacer dictates the preload (and I think there was extra spacers at the bearing O.D.
The other being the std. 6000 series ball race. 6408?, 6410? (can't remember the numbers)
Does that help at all?
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  #3  
Old 04-09-18, 11:41
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Alastair McMurray
 
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Canadian

Canadian

Canadian

Candaian

Canadian

British

British

British On the Right
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  #4  
Old 04-09-18, 12:32
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Alistair, The TL 95 spacer has that part number in the first Canadian parts book (1941) (TL 95)
A Canadian part number does not necessarily have a "C" in it
That also means, I guess that the part number stayed the same, British or Canadian and that the spacer remained unchanged, from early production until 1944.
I have no knowledge of the variations in the later seal arrangement, but would be surprised to find the bearings are different.
Is the difference in height to allow for the thickness of the felt seal?
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
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So many questions....
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  #5  
Old 05-09-18, 05:27
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Default C31ucw

Is it reasonable to expect British stores had a supply of C31UCW bogie wheel seals that could have been spares with the Supply Ministry order of that series of NO-2 MK-II* univeral carriers? Your seal is marked to the C31UCW model u.c..
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  #6  
Old 05-09-18, 06:56
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Alastair McMurray
 
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I've never inspected the wheels on a MkII* so I don't know what type of seals they used, I've only ever seen the Canadian wheels with the exposed felt seal. Is the CTL type I photographed that used on MKII* machines?
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  #7  
Old 05-09-18, 12:28
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Al, I think these are a later type sealing system. Not attributed to any particular model, just a new and better system introduced at some point, and not across the board either. For example, Ford may have introduced them, while Wolseley did not
I have some that probably came with my MkIIIw Built in August 1941.
You will find that MkIIIW AOPs were being built at the same time as MkII Mortar carriers and MkI Universals.
The Mk. has nothing to do with a time frame, but everything to do with advances (changes, like the stowage plan) in that particular type.
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
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  #8  
Old 05-09-18, 12:31
rob love rob love is offline
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I have only seen the cork seals on the Cdn carriers. Hardly a positive seal, especially with a hub that gets grease pumped into it. The excess grease picks up sand and dust, which formulates into the perfect abrasive.

I was able to replace the cork seals with normal wheel seals when I did my carrier a decade back, but for the kind of pampered service my carrier is ever going to do, the cork would have been fine.

I was recently working with some T-16 wheels, which had a different bearing setup and some better sealing. I ended up pulling all that T-16 stuff out of the wheels and replacing it with standard UC bearings and cork seals, as that was what they were going on. I didn't want to confuse the next generation of owner.
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Old 05-09-18, 16:42
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Alastair McMurray
 
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Could anyone post a photo of the earlier / Canadian type sealing arrangement for reference? Or a scan from the illustrated parts book would be nice.
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  #10  
Old 06-09-18, 06:53
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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The grease seal C31UCW 104180 is found as a part within CTL 814 SA, Seal Assembly - Bogie Wheel Grease

You will not find this part or assembly listed in the May, 1944 edition of the Ford Canada Illustrated Parts Catalogue for Carrier, Universal MKI* and MKII*. It is listed in the July, 1945 Ford Canada Illustrated Spare Parts List for Carrier, Windsor MARK I*

As the first model Windsor Carrier was supplied with standard CTL 94A wheels, the assemblies could have been for that model W.C. The second model W.C. also had the same grease seal assemblies, but the C49WC 108120C wheel and tire should stand out due to the increased width difference. The Windsor Carrier contract was a single order produced for UK Supply Ministry.
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Last edited by Michael R.; 06-09-18 at 07:14.
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  #11  
Old 06-09-18, 07:57
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Alistair, you might note the axles with nuts both ends, which are not shown in Chilwell 63/73 Loyd Carrier workshop manual (First edition April 1944)

The picture of the rear bogie comes from the first U.C.MkI* parts book (June 1941)
TL 95 (Canadian part) has remained the same.
TL 19 is the cork (or felt) seal, and TL 22 is the seal track.

I'm inclined to disagree with Rob. I think the cork seal worked well. However I know exactly what he means about the wear.
I believe this happens as a result of old dried out, shrunk cork seals.
I have pulled used wheels apart and often found perfect bearings.
I have also found some rather worn seal tracks. I think these were a bit average from new, some being made from seamed tube with the weld a bit lacking.
Early axles = a forging to make the head. later 2 nut axles = just a quick machining operation , cut from bar stock.= easier and cheaper to make.
Not Loyd specific, just a better idea introduced later.
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....

Last edited by Lynn Eades; 06-09-18 at 08:34.
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  #12  
Old 06-09-18, 08:33
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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The picture I intended to post
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
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  #13  
Old 06-09-18, 10:42
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Guys, in those days it was normal for the seals in the wheels of tracked vehicles to be primariy intended to keep the mud and water out, not the grease in. Any mud that got past the seal was intended to be flushed out when the bearing was greased which was a daily task in bad conditions. The manuals on British cruiser tanks stress that the relatively modern style lip seals that they use must be fitted with their open sides out to allow the grease to push out any mud. This practice only stopped in British armoured vehicles when modern hardened face seals were introduced, I think firstly on the FV430 series.

David
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