M38A1 CDN2 Steering question

[Warren Quin]

I have a 67 CDN2 and am having trouble locating either a correct outer center tie rod (the one that ties into the bell crank) or possibly I need a different bell crank or I have no idea...

I had to replace the center tie rod end and when I got the part it could not be used due to a bend in it. When attached it hit the inner tie rod. Thinking I got the wrong part, I ordered from another source. Same issue. To get the unit out of the garage, I put one in a press and flattened it. While this works I'm a little concerned about stress cracks, and the fact I probably shouldn't have to do this, so I wanted to fix it properly.

This weekend I took off the bell crank to see if I could swap in the spare one I had for my 3B thinking it looked like it would sit higher and would allow the tie rod end to clear. All the online information and the CDN2/3 service manual shows the same crank and repair kit parts for almost all the CJ/M series Jeeps. Well after getting it off I could see that wasn't actually true. While it has the same bearings and center bushing, everything else is different. I seem to have all the correct parts for the bell crank installation on the A1 as designed (it is still riveted), even though I can't find any information or pictures on what I have, they all work and have minimal wear but I can't use the stock tie rod end.

In the attached pictures you can see the original tie rod end that was on the unit beside the replacement (you can see the bend), tire rod end installed (flattened to clear the inner), the bell crank assembly with dust cap with flattened tie rod end installed, top view of the bell crank assembly, and the frame mount. As you can see the entire bell crank installation is factory but looks nothing like the manual or anything else i can find.

Does someone know what I am missing? Is there a longer bell crank? A kit to use a standard A1 bell crank and repair kit? Or was flattening the tie rod end a normal procedure with this setup?

Thanx for any help with this...

Warren

[rob love]

You do not straighten the steering center tie rod. That would be very dangerous.

The Canadian bellcrank had more clearance from the frame, but the radius of the swing should be the same as every other bellcrank. The clearance was to allow for PTO shafts, which in reality were pretty rare in Cdn service anyway. As an aside, there was a priority A modification to drill a hole through the top of the center bolt of the bellcrank and install a castellated nut and cotter pin. There had been instances of the nut coming off and the bellcrank dropping down.

In all honesty I have never run into the problem you describe. I'll have a look at mine today and try to compare it with your photos and see where your problem comes in.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Warren:

Where is your vehicle - cuz Canada is a big place?

[Warren Quin]

Thanx for the reply's...

Rob, I have the castle nut and cotter pin.

In picture 2 you can see the tie rod end in relation to the bolt that connects to the tub under the rad. I know its not a great picture but does the relationship there look right or should the bell crank project further out?

About the only other thing I can find related to this was a discussion on G503.com from 2006 (and a similar one on Willys M Jeeps that referenced it) related to an M38 question but the bell crank pictured in it looks exactly like mine:

http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=460405

In it there is mention of replacing:
Bell Crank - NSN 2530-00-737-5183/Willys P/N 800867
With
Bell Crank - NSN 2530-00-333-3527/Willys P/N 906296
Dust Cap - NSN 2530-00-333-3526/Willys P/N 808436)
Shoulder Bolt - NSN 5306-21-107-1495/Willys P/N 906396
Bearing, Sleeve - NSN 3120-21-106-0245/Willys P/N 906397
Along with some washers and seals ???

which again sounds like what I have but I can't find any of the part numbers other than the original, which is the stock spare bell crank I have, but it didn't look like I could mount it...

I have had the entire front end apart looking for anything wrong but other than possibly the bell crank sitting lower, which it might be but I have nothing to compare it to locally, and being shorter, which it isn't compared to the stock one I was playing with yesterday... Any help sorting out where my issue is would be greatly appreciated.

Maple-Leaf_eh:

And you're right... I have adjusted my profile so it's a little less expansive... Saint John, New Brunswick...

Warren

[rob love]

That conversation on G503 rang a bell....sure enough I was the one that gave those numbers (I am cmpman on that forum).

[Warren Quin]

I thought so, based on the content similarities

Rob, do you know if there is a "collar" kit to mount the common bell crank on that CDN2 mount?

This is a picture of the mount with the collar (heavy tin with a spring inside and seal) from inside the top of the existing bell crank pushed on. With this the common crank seemed to fit fine.

This looks like it would bring up the crank and change the angle so maybe the tie rod would fit.

Its not something I can make unfortunately.

I hate to do it as I was keeping it stock, or more correctly "last used" I guess, and what is on it is perfectly usable but I do need that tie rod end addressed :-(

Thanx again
Warren

[rob love]

If you had access to a lathe, then I suppose you could make anything. I have not had to repair my bellcrank, but I remember a friend ordering the stuff from JC Whitney back in the day and making it work.

Perhaps Brian Asbury has the original Cdn kits. They came out around 1982 as I recall, were made by Mil-quip, and contained everything needed to replace the bellcrank. Only problem we had with the kits were that the center bolt was extremely hardened, and we could not drill it out for the modification. We merely would re-use the original.

Perhaps other problems you may have could be extremely sagged springs, or an axle that has sheared the center pin of the spring and moved forward. We had thousands of jeeps running with that long bellcrank, and had no problems.

Are both your tie rod tubes straight?

[Warren Quin]

I'll ask Brian than as I have no means of making something.

Everything is good. No loose springs, it steers fine, I had no problems aligning it... It just that the tie rod doesn't work with the bend in it as is...

Edit: I just went out and jacked it up to verify the springs. It had to go up almost 2.5 inches for the angles to look like they would clear and the shackles were pretty much vertical. I don't think that's right...

I will just have to keep looking...

If you have a unit with this bell crank could I get a picture or two of the tie rod angles for comparison? One of the problems is I have nothing to compare it to...

Thank again
Warren

[BCA]

I checked a few jeeps and some NOS tie rod ends. The diameter of the body at the end of the centre tie rod end (where it is a tight fit) is 1-7/16" for NOS part. It is possible that repro parts have a thicker body which would rub against the other tie rod. However I checked 4 CDN2/3 M38A1's and they all have very little or no clearance where you are having your problem. My 1953 M38A1 has about 1/8" or more clearance.
Maybe this lack of clearance was not a problem as long as the part could be installed tightly. There would seem to be very little differential motion at this tight spot when the wheels are turned. ..... Brian

[Warren Quin]

Thanx to everyone who contributed. I guess, for now, it will stay as is using my pressed tie rod end. Eventually I think I will have to get a mount that will take the regular crank and new springs to bring the angles up (like crossed swords) as I can't see anyway to lengthen the bell crank to push them out and apart. This would seem to be the only answer given there are only 3 connection points on the tie rod setup...

Assuming there is not a different tie rod, it just seems strange that, if all the CDN2's have this long bell crank, that it hasn't come up before. I can't have the only unit with slightly tired springs...

Thanx again...

Warren

[rob love]

You could go to the narrow tie rods used on the M38 and CJs. Tie rods came in two threads and thicknesses. The tapered studs are the same, so they are interchangeable.

I checked mine and there is very little clearance. Just the nature of the beast I guess.

Re the bellcrank mount, there was always a problem with separation of the crossmember at the bellcrank mount. If the crossmember does need welding, I recommend removing the radiator, as it is in very close proximity. Also, the radiator tends to get beaten up in the area of the bellcrank bolt...another thing to check on.

[Warren Quin]

Thank Rob. I'll look into the m38/CJ parts... I considered it in the beginning but thought I would try an keep it as close to original as pockets allowed...

My mount and crossmember is solid plus the rad has no dents...

One of the reasons I got this unit, other than it was reasonably cheap, was it was in pretty good shape all considered. From a functional standpoint all I've done is the tie rod, rear shocks, all the fluids, and the parking brake which I'm still working on parts for (thanx Brian)... Just missing bits and pieces... the small stuff that empties the pockets in a continuous stream as you think "I know I don't have a on/off switch but wouldn't the switch plate for it look good behind the key"... Or yeah the mix of mismatched plug wires works but a new set of factories would look so much better ... :-)

Anyhow thanks again and now I'm off to see if the brake switch is truly gone or if today's rain just soaked the old wiring and shorted it :-(

Warren