ID guns on these MCC trucks

[George Moore]

Marc,
In your post, the fourth photo is of the 4.5" Howitzer.

The British Army at that time (WWI) had "field guns", the 13 and 18pdr, plus the 4.5" howitzer. There were larger calibre guns, but "field artillery" had these sizes.
Army doctrine at the time was predominantly "field pieces", whereas the German philosophy went more towards howitzers.

Inter-war years, and up to WWII, there were still a number of WWI artillery pieces in stock, the US had a number of the French 75mm guns.

Artillery development in Britain was slow, due in part to finances and also political pressures, (sound familiar??).
A lot of these guns were drawn out of the arsenals to go with the BEF and other commonwealth nations. In the interwar period a US manufacturer Martin Parry, designed a conversion to alter the old style "artillery wheel" of horse drawn guns to the "modern" inovation of motorised transport. The Martin Parry conversion was a hanger fitted to original axle with a stub axle that allowed the gun to be fitted with the smaller pneumatic tyres, but allowed the gun to remain at the same height. The conversion was fitted to the 4.5" howitzer, I have photos of the 4.5 with the conversion, and cast on the hanger body is [18 pdr].

The original series of photos show the 18pdr, with the pole trail.
A number of the stocks of 18pdrs were relined to create the 18/25pdr, and fitted to either a split trail or box trail. I think a lot of the split trail guns went to Commonwealth countries, and there is one in Eire.
The box trail was the one decided on for the British Army at the time. It became the fore-runner of the 25pdr.

So really it was not a fact that these guns were sent out as useless (they were), but it was all there was, and those had been converted on the cheap.

As an aside, the 6" Howitzer went to france in 1939/40, with at least three different patterns of wheel, the old artillery wheel, the same but with a rubber "band" tyre, on the rim and others with a conversion to pneumatic tyres.
As some of the artillery units were TA, they were issued pretty much with obsolete equipment.

Sorry for this rather "biblical proportion" of a response.

I am sure someone will correct my facts.

George.

[Marc van Aalderen]

Originally Posted by George Moore

Marc,
In your post, the fourth photo is of the 4.5" Howitzer.

George, you are right. I was looking at thumbnail sized pics when I attached the pics....

This 4.5" gun was in a different location in the museum.

Cheers,

[Mike Cecil]

Hi George,

I think I can add something to your post, at least from an Australian perspective.

Britain, and by design, the Commonwealth also had the 15-pdr QF gun, as well as the 13 and 18 pdrs.

The 18/25 pdr was a conversion of the later models of 18-pdr: the MkIV with box trail, (in many ways similar to the later 25-pdr trail), and the 18-pdr Mk.V with the split trail, the nomenclature of the converted gun says it all:'Ordnance QF 25-pdr Mk.1 on Carriage 18pdr Mk.V(P)'. There were also a small number of 18-pdr MkIII carriages equipped with the 25-pdr ordnance, but these were only in UK service, I think.

Australia had a number of Mk.III and IV 18-pdr guns on the inventory prior to WW2, on various carriages, including the Mk.IV(P)(Aust) - the pneumatic conversion unique to Australia. As far as I can tell, there were very few MkV 18-pdrs in Australia at that time.

Conversion to 'mechanised transport' was even slower in Australia, with an interim period in the mid-1930s where pneumatic-tyred trailers (the Wilton Trailers) were developed to carry the 18-pdrs and limbers around, rather than conversion direct to pneumatic wheels (too expensive!). This overlapped with a period where tractors - little Howard wheeled farm tractors - were introduced as the 'gun tractor': they were as slow as horses, so didn't 'stress' the carriages!

In the early stages of WW2, after the 2nd AIF started arriving in the Middle East, they received a small number of split trail 18/25pdr Mk.V(P)s, with at least 8 issued to the 2/7th Field Regt, and I have an image of the 2/4th Fd Regt training with them in the Middle East in 1940-41, prior to their requippment with the 25-pdr.

I seem to remember the remains of a Mk.V(P) 18/25pdr turning up some years ago in Australia, so there must have been a few there at least, but I've not yet come across any official source that lists them.

Regards

Mike C

[Lang]

Originally Posted by RHClarke

Yes, but our ammo won't be made in china.

I would not be too sure about that. A good Chinese company would not let something like a war interfere with business. If we make them ourselves we will only be able to afford half as much "better" ammunition because the factory workers will be on rostered days off, maternity leave, accrued holidays, stress leave, public holidays, compo for bad backs etc etc etc

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Lang

I would not be too sure about that. A good Chinese company would not let something like a war interfere with business. If we make them ourselves we will only be able to afford half as much "better" ammunition because the factory workers will be on rostered days off, maternity leave, accrued holidays, stress leave, public holidays, compo for bad backs etc etc etc

If you are not worried about quality and precision, then buy from China.

[George Moore]

Thanks for the extra insight into the history of the guns.

The split trail was I believe only used by Commonwealth forces, I have as yet only seen the photos of that gun in service in North Africa, though generalised in the other areas of the area, Syria, Palestine etc, where I know the Australians were present.
What photos I do have of abandoned guns in France after Dunkirk, and there are fields full of them, not one appears to be a split trail, and I have based my assumptions on this.

There are some photos of a preserved split trail gun on the site.

As an aside, the recent post on WWII films is amazing.
The films are colourised, as some are a bit suspect as to cammo schemes on vehicles, but the North Africa set, after about 3 minutes, has some great shots of 4.5" howitzers firing, and a great one of a 6" howitzer firing. The kick back is incredible, looks as if it would do as much damage to the crew as it would to the target. Must see!!!

Thanks for the info, as you may be aware, I make model master patterns for a company Resicast. We have brought out the 18pdr and 4.5" howitzer in 1/35th scale, and I am working on the 18/25pdr and 6" howitzer.

George.

[Keith Brooker]

Prewar 18Pdrs and last one from ww1, photos taken from my original negatives

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks Keith: nice images. The last two are 4.5 inch Howitzers.

Mike