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  #151  
Old 24-09-21, 01:19
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In the first picture there is the welds visible for the flare pistol bracket. A few pictures and some mystery holes along the back panel. There is a pair near the top and then five uniformly spaced along bottom corner. The hasp is riveted on
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  #152  
Old 24-09-21, 01:20
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Last two pictures with the dimensions between the wood blocks. The tray is 12Ē deep with the wood blocks being closer to 10Ē.
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549E8695-E61B-4E69-A782-87297B369ABC.jpeg   1EF394A3-904E-4C83-83F6-F471BEEB7522.jpeg  
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  #153  
Old 24-09-21, 01:27
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Baker View Post
In the first picture there is the welds visible for the flare pistol bracket. A few pictures and some mystery holes along the back panel. There is a pair near the top and then five uniformly spaced along bottom corner. The hasp is riveted on
Photo 3 is a '37 pattern 1" brass web strap end. They used the holes in the usual eyelets for rivets that held the end of the strap to the vehicle bin. Safe to say there was a web strap attached there and a reciprocal one someplace on the other side.
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  #154  
Old 24-09-21, 02:34
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Jordan.

If I understand the turret of the Otter correctly, it was manually operated by the gunner, using the Foot Ring mounted on the floor below the basket seat to leverage the basket left or right. If so, how much clearance is there below the top of the Foot Rest and the pan under the seat? Later Otter production may have taken advantage of this space for storage by adding another metal 4-sided shelf. This could even have been designed as a bolt on retro kit.

For the five holes you found along the lower rear edge, take a close look at the spacing in relation to the two wooden blocks. Is it symmetrical, or is it possible a sixth hole existed at one end once upon a time. That might be the hole line for attaching the upper rear tab of the new shelf.

If an item like Bruce suggested was stowed there, you would not want a standard padlock fastener getting in the way of sliding something in and out of that shelf. Perhaps the slot in the hasp was used to engage a spring tab retainer that was fitted underneath the floor of the new shelf assembly?

Just odd thoughts but thought I would put them out there.

I wonder if the set of Design Branch Reference Books list any Otter upgrades.

David
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  #155  
Old 26-09-21, 04:50
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Tonight I started in on making the new tray.


Yes David, the turret was rotated by pressing your feet on the foot ring on the floor. There is quite a bit of clearance between the bottom of the tray and the foot ring. I believe itís easily 10-12 inches. This Otter is on the earlier end of things. There very well may have been a kit but when looking over the Overloon Otter (itís a later made one) there was no sign of these holes and wood blocks from what I remember.

There was only 5 holes. The wood blocks are off centre whereas the hasp is centred.

The armoured glass blocks have their own bins beside the driver and commander seats. The wet weather windows do not show up at all on the stowage diagrams. I thought about them going there but they donít really fit between the wood blocks.
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  #156  
Old 26-09-21, 05:40
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Nice start to the tray, Jordan.

I noticed in the photo there are Pattern 37 Brass fittings surviving on both sides of the front of the tray, that Bruce identified the other day. Looks like the open concept of that shelf in the illustration was amended to add a web strap to keep the stuff on the shelf from falling out.

Do you have any idea how easily rotated that turret assembly is for the operator? If it moves easily, I can see why things on that shelf could have been prone to sliding out.

The other thing I noticed this evening in that illustration is the two steel boxes stowed under the turret foot rest. The large square looking one seems centred under the rest, however the smaller one, strapped to its mount looks like it sticks out quite a bit away from the Rest Assembly. Are there any signs of that sheet metal mount for the smaller box being installed in your Otter? I ask because the way it sticks out into the open, I can imagine ankles and lower legs getting slammed into it in the heat of the moment when the Operator is turning the turret back and forth while focusing on things outside. Maybe...that box got moved to a new shelf under the seat tray. A similar location, but safer place for whatever it is.

Thatís all Iíve got tonight, Jordan. I have run out of tea!

David
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  #157  
Old 29-09-21, 00:53
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The three boxes under the turret foot ring are Boyes Ammunition boxes. There is no sign of ever having a shelf mounted on the floor near the foot ring.

The turret rotates on 60 1/2Ē ball bearings. Itís supposed to be able to rotate quite freely.

As for the 37pat web straps. These clips are steel. Iíll have to take a closer look to see what remains of any webbing inside the clips.

As for todayís progress Iím working away on the magazine bins. Yesterday I picked up a Porta Spot Spotwelder a few hours away from me. I found it for sale on Facebook marketplace. Itís been a bit of a learning curve with a few blow through holes that I will have to fix. However I believe Iíve finally figured it out and seem to be making decent spot welds.
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  #158  
Old 29-09-21, 18:22
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Jordan,
I have a spot welder similar to yours and one of the best things I did was to make a copper cap that fits onto one of the electrodes. It is about 20mm diameter and long, drilled half way through to very loosely fit the electrode but still be able to rock a bit. The top of it is flat but with the edge a little rounded so as not to mark the job. Using this on the 'good' side of the job it avoids the sharp edged dimples that you get from a small spot weld. Obviously you can't use one of these on both sides as it wouldn't be a spot weld then and you do have to use a little more heat but it is easy to get really nice clean and strong welds this way.

David
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  #159  
Old 30-09-21, 04:12
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Thanks for the advice. This spot welder works great with both electrodes on both sides. You just need to make sure hat both pieces of metal are very tight together.

I decided with fresh eyes to totally remake the one magazine box. I realized after looking at the stowage diagram that the magazineís fit in with the open end on top. I had made the dividers just a little too too narrow to do this.
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  #160  
Old 01-10-21, 03:52
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Default Tricks on spot welders....

Keep your tip clean........ frequent light filing...... clean the steel with acetone.... I use a flat tip on the bottom side and a pointed tip on top...... make sure they sit absolutely flat. ....to keep the long reach of the rods from touching wrap them up with fiberglass tape intended for exhaust pipe manifold from Summit....... use locking pliers on each side of the spot weld when possible........ I often have a third hand helping me (Grant) we hold the spot welder steady on the work bench..... I carry the work to the welder and he fires while I hold it in place.....

Above all...... take the time to test out on scrap pieces...... each time you set up...... so you can adjust the timing.......if it blows or throws sparks something is wrong....too hot too long or not flat......

3 layers is possible but very tricky....... such as door skins!!!! Using the flat head leaves hardly any mark on the finished side.

.....but they do work nice!!!!!!!
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  #161  
Old 01-10-21, 21:29
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Making a second tail light bracket. The right side one is original with extra holes added by the Dutch army post war. The extra holes were welded up and the new one made from 11ga plate. Another small part finished.
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  #162  
Old 01-10-21, 21:33
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Well done Jordan!
your works are very inspiring!
Thanks for sharing!
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  #163  
Old 03-10-21, 04:19
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Front fender removed. At some point in the Otters life the fender flares on all fenders had all been bent in. Now the process of bending them back begins. I also have to make a new front left fender.
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  #164  
Old 10-10-21, 18:41
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Two new to be Otter pictures. Interior pictures are rather rare.

The turret down shows what looks to be a strap mounting matching the remains of what I found on the magazine rack.
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  #165  
Old 15-10-21, 03:10
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Today the rest of the turret basket was removed from the hull. I was thinking that the two Boys ATR magazine boxes would fit between the Bren magazine boxes. However with the seat installed they do not fit. The height between the tray bottom and the bottom of the seat is about 5Ē.
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  #166  
Old 15-10-21, 03:16
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Also on closer inspection of the original tray there is the remains of solid brass rivets. Now Iím scratching my head as to what they were for. Iím not sure if they were for fastening something to the inside of the tray or for something hanging below that has to do with the two wood blocks and locking hasp. On the locking hasp there is the remains of two rivets. The spacing matches perfectly to the p37 web strap ends. Oh to find an interior picture showing the turret basket.

The turret is now just sitting off the side of the race. Itís quite heavy on its own so Iíll be using the hoist to lower it to ground.
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  #167  
Old 15-10-21, 05:54
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Brass rivets and mystery holes. One could lose sleep over such mysteries. Does that line of holes along the back suggest hinge? Not that whatever hinges would have much movement but just a thought.
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  #168  
Old 15-10-21, 07:29
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Iím thinking along the front opening may have been a canvas flap. Riveted along the front bottom edge of the tray. Then a buckle at either end matching up with where I know a strap end was riveted on the ends of the magazine bin.
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  #169  
Old 15-10-21, 08:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Baker View Post
Today the rest of the turret basket was removed from the hull. I was thinking that the two Boys ATR magazine boxes would fit between the Bren magazine boxes. However with the seat installed they do not fit. The height between the tray bottom and the bottom of the seat is about 5Ē.
If the Boys Mag chests are too tall, do Bren Mag chests fit?
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  #170  
Old 16-10-21, 04:10
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I tried the Bren magazine box and itís too tall as well.

Iím leaning towards there being a canvas flap (red rectangle)along the front of the tray. Bottom edge riveted to the tray. Then at either endow of the canvas flap there is a P37 web strap/buckle/tab (blue rectangles) to keep it in place.
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  #171  
Old 16-10-21, 04:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Baker View Post
I tried the Bren magazine box and itís too tall as well.

Iím leaning towards there being a canvas flap (red rectangle)along the front of the tray. Bottom edge riveted to the tray. Then at either endow of the canvas flap there is a P37 web strap/buckle/tab (blue rectangles) to keep it in place.
They conveniently used the holes in the Pattern '37 brass web ends for the rivets to attach those web bits to the bins. If your theory is correct then the obvious use for that space is maps, aerial photos or other such information a reconnaissance vehicle observer may require to do his job. The British Humber Mk.IV actually had a map table on the commander's forward hatch panel, something I wish the Canadians would have duplicated in the Fox.
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  #172  
Old 16-10-21, 17:28
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Interesting wartime promotional poster I found.
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  #173  
Old 17-10-21, 04:16
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Turret basket being worked on. Some detail pictures of the retainer chains and pins. The one tube was cracked/split with not much holding it. I broke off the tube then bolted hem to the turret bearing race. This ensured everything was lined up. The mating surface was prepped for welding. There was also a pretty bad split in the other tube. The ends of the split were drilled out and the split cleaned up. Everything welded up nicely. Now to get the upper tubes removed from the lower tubes. Currently they are rusted in place.
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  #174  
Old 17-10-21, 04:17
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Turret basket all welded up and the main parts now all separated.
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  #175  
Old 17-10-21, 04:20
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Lastly some interesting stampings found on the turret lower bearing race.

The -010 Iím wondering if it would be a shim size. When I removed the bearing race there were a pile of shims that came out with it. Iíve saved them all. I didnít measure them but they did look to be about 10 thou thick.
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  #176  
Old 18-10-21, 02:48
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Busy afternoon pulling more parts. I used the overhead gantry crane to safety lift off the turret and lower it to the ground. I figured I may as well save my back and also remove the chance of dropping it and having casting crack. The lower race was also removed where I found three more shims
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Old 18-10-21, 02:50
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Next up was the wireless rack. 4 bolts hold this overbuilt piece of metal in place. Itís nice that all the wiring clips were still in place along with the earthing strips.
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Old 18-10-21, 02:54
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The rest of the interior equipment panels were also removed. Everything came out very easily with the nuts undoing without much persuasion. The one equipment divider will need to be replace due to metal rot. Of interest is how the top edge was constructed with the piece of flat bar inside the safety edge. Also of note is the same P37 tabs riveted to the WS19 spare valves in storage bin
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  #179  
Old 18-10-21, 04:39
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Jordan, take special care to look for and preserve interior stenciling. I was able to determine what should be there from period photos but sometimes only from original evidence.
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  #180  
Old 18-10-21, 04:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
Jordan, take special care to look for and preserve interior stenciling. I was able to determine what should be there from period photos but sometimes only from original evidence.
Iíve been looking carefully but there is nothing left.
__________________
Jordan Baker
RHLI Museum,
Otter LRC
C15A-Wire3, 1944
Willys MB, 1942
Dodge D23c, 1942
10cwt Canadian trailer
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