Super Pershing tank

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

This morning I was reading a book revue on the M26A1E2 or T26E4 Super Pershing,the whereabouts on the net I've lost.Apparently this tank was designed to counter the Tiger !! and was in service with the 3RD Armoured Division in NWE.The tank only fought in one action in Cologne near the end of the war and was credited with knocking out a panther tank at a range of 1500 yards.Never heard of this tank before.Are there any photos out there of this super tank?Would really like to see a picture of this monster !!

[John McGillivray]

Here is a photo of the T26E4. The 90mm gun on the M26 was still inferior to the German 88mm and the British 17pdr, so the Americans developed a longer more powerful version called the T15E2 90mm gun. This gun was fitted to the T26E4 tank. Only 25 of these tanks were built starting in March 1945.



There was a show on History Television a few months ago, about US Army combat photo units. I think it was called “When the War Came to Germany” or something like that. There were two teams of camera men in Köln Germany when the Panther was KOed by the M26 near the Köln Cathedral. Below is a still from one of the films they shot.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

That film clip is on the CANADA AT WAR series (along with a gruesome clip showing a Sherman tanker bailing out with one leg gone).

The T-26 was a POS mechanically until it was migrated into the M-46 and then beyond. In 1945, the Cent was a better tank, but it never got into action because the Brits spent too much time diddling around with the Black Prince and the Tortoise. A shame really.

[John McGillivray]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
That film clip is on the CANADA AT WAR series (along with a gruesome clip showing a Sherman tanker bailing out with one leg gone).

Geoff, that is were I captured the still from. In the Canada At War series the film clip was shown during the part dealing with the battle of Ortona, even though there were no Panthers in Ortona.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
Geoff, that is were I captured the still from. In the Canada At War series the film clip was shown during the part dealing with the battle of Ortona, even though there were no Panthers in Ortona.

John, there's a lot of repetition and out-of-sync stuff in the entire series, but it's still damned good...

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
John, there's a lot of repetition and out-of-sync stuff in the entire series, but it's still damned good...

We get many flavours of the Discovery and History channel sub-sets and indeed the narrative against the pictures is almost invariably wrong, the only pieces assured in accuracy occur when David Fletcher stands in front of something in the Bovvy Tank Museum.

The media people get far worse when dealing with German stuff and seem to perpetuate the inaccurate public myths; they seem to have the Titanic syndrome, invariably drawn to an iceberg and sinking themselves in out-of-sync inaccuracy. With few exceptions their now well worn stock of battle footage specifically German and armour, is generally Russian campaign.

It is surprising that people presented by the media as experts can be so misleading as we see here with a large gentleman from over the water. Statements like the Tiger B was specifically made for the Ardennes offensive cannot be true by simple logic of timescale; Pieper, he says, placed these at the head of his column because of their potency, whereas a little research will show he put them at the back where the interminable breakdowns did not impinge on the advance; and the main Tiger B problem was the supply of fuel, oil, ammo and spares, but I think the average observer might realise this applies to "tanks" rather than one specific type.

The Köln footage as presented here would seem to be with a M10 Achilles and not a "tank" per se, however, such is the disjointed way the makers present the material then anything is possible.

We should remember the prime aim of anything presented on Dis-Hist, or most other places for that matter, is to make money; everything else is subservient to that requirement and the overhead in accurate and cross-checked research is obviously unacceptable to the accountants, and let's face it, the programmes are intended for the mass interest so are usually just a veneer.

Now, Ballington-Spin (Mk.1*), two Centurions did make WWII in A46 guise but with just 2 weeks war service at the very end they never found anything in Europe to fire at or got fired on, you would have to look at Korea for Cent battlefield performance.

It is true though that Britain knew the tank rules but never really got the hang of firepower/mobility/protection until the A46/Centurion which was indeed too little, too late; even so the small (ish) turret ring concept and therefore gun limitation still persisted but for once industry was given a free hand with the understanding that the official spec, for another lumbering and under-gunned infantry tank, would not be pedantically enforced in much the same way as the well known Spitfire story.

Even so, there were many prophets of doom in military and political circles who foresaw a Centurion disaster in Korea and even had the matter debated in the House at length over some months. They were proved utterly wrong in the event and here was the first, true MBT as we know it today. Not perfect indeed and the propensity for the 27 litre Meteor to guzzle petrol at up to 15gpm is one of them, a problem latterly solved by the ingenious people in the Middle East who dropped a Teledyne diesel in it whereupon it fought a "modern" war with great distinction.

R.

[John McGillivray]

Yes there are many really bad “documentaries” out there. Some are better described as works of fiction. There are also many written works equally as bad.

The documentary that I referred to in my previous post is of a much higher standard, even thought it is American made, and only covers American subjects. It was two hours long and there are no talking heads making stupid comments. It was just about the film clips, which were shown in their proper time sequence. The only comments were concerning the details of the shots, with regard to who the camera men were, where and when the films were made and some detail of the circumstances and the units depicted.

As for the Köln Panther, there were two camera men, one with the infantry who got the shots of the Panther burning, and a second with the tanks, which were M26’s. They looked just like the standard M26’s. The Panther got in the first shot and KOed one of the American tanks before it was taken out by a second tank.

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

There's a great desert war film out of the UK in black and white that I taped.Unfortuneately I'm missing the beginning part so I don't have the title. It shows maos , dispositions of troops,including the Aussie/NZ/Indian forces and is loaded with all kinds of CMP's/Dodges/portees and every other type of equipment discussed on the thread and is pretty accurate as to engagements fought.

[Ponysoldier]

3rd Armored Division history reads that a T-26(initail production)
engaged a panther and two Panzer M4 destoryed all three
before being hit in the mantlet by a second Panther.
It was repaired. The unit was 3/32 armored.
The Super Pershing is a Korean war version or M-26 A1-E3
Patrick

[John McGillivray]

Check out this site for details of battle between the Pershing and the Panther in Cologne.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=165131

[Ponysoldier]

I could not get the site to open,I hate having dial up
the traffic must really high I'll try again later..
Patrick

[Ian Pullen]

There's a book called "Death Traps" by Belton Cooper who was a liaison officer for a maintenance Battalion during WW2. In it he details the Super Pershing and field mods whilst being introduced. Very interesting reading, he also details problems with the Sherman in combat against German armour. It's a safe bet he doesn't have much time for Shermans.
Recommended Reading...... I give it 4 stars....

[Ponysoldier]

Thanks sounds like a good read.
Patrick

[Dave Block]

The 'Super' Pershing, or 'Super M-26' was a one-off tank sent to Europe in March, 1945. It was 'super' because it mounted the new, long-barrelled T15E1 90mm gun. 40mm & 80mm plate was added for protection under the direction of Belton Cooper himself. In short, only one made. More detailed information can be found in 'Military Modelling' vol.35 no.4 (Apr.-May 2005) in Steve Zaloga's excellent article on modelling this beast. Of course, Hunnicutt's 'Pershing' book has the full story as well. I can also highly recommend Cooper's 'Death Traps'.
The photo scan is originally from the Patton Museum and I took it from Steve's MM article as I didn't want to break the spine of the Hunnicut book on my scanner.

HTH, Cheers, Dave

[Ponysoldier]

Well I finally got that to open,I must say the author
on the site has done alot of work in laying that out.
He certainly has the documentation to prove his claim.
I know the Center For Military History does not
have some of those pictures,and someone should
contact the center and offer copies to them.
Now as far as Steve Z goes he is about the best there
is,his work in scale models are almost legendary and
his writing is on the same plane..
Patrick

[Dave Block]

called 'Another River, Another Town' by John P.Irwin. No pictures but he was the gunner in the above-mentioned tank & recounts his memories. From Random House 2002, I found my copy in a bargain bookstore for $7.00. Interesting but not the best book I've ever read...

Cheers, Dave

[John McGillivray]

Originally posted by Ponysoldier
Well I finally got that to open,I must say the author
on the site has done alot of work in laying that out.
He certainly has the documentation to prove his claim.
I know the Center For Military History does not
have some of those pictures,and someone should
contact the center and offer copies to them.
Now as far as Steve Z goes he is about the best there
is,his work in scale models are almost legendary and
his writing is on the same plane..
Patrick

Steve Zaloga is well known in the AFV modelling world. I have a couple of his books. It seems that on the rare times that he refers to the Canadians, he often gets the history wrong.

Here are some quotes from the Concord book “D-Day Tank Warfare” by Steve Zaloge and George Balin.

(p5) “In the ensuing fighting, the Pz.Kpfw. IVs of l./SS-Pz.Rgt.l2 struck the 27th Canadian Armd. Bde. and knocked out 28 Shermans for a loss of only six tanks”.

(p.7) “In addition there was a substantial Canadian force including the 4th Armoured Division, and the allied Polish 1st Armoured Division. Goodwood would be preceded by the most massive bombing raid of the campaign,…”

(p.9) “In the town of St. Lambert, a single German Panther held off a Canadian tank attack, knocking out 14 Shermans before a young lieutenant managed to clamber on the tank; wound the tank commander and toss a grenade inside.”

[Ponysoldier]

John yes your right about those inconsistancies.
I cant understand why there should be those kind of
errors,given the volume of Canadian history that can be
used as reference I started building British,and Canadian
kits two years ago,because I have built just about
everything American and German out there. I was startled
at the number of marks or modifications that the English
and Canadians used during the period of WWll, which
gives me more to build.
Patrick