Info needed: Engine Pre-Lube after storage

[Les Kovacs]

I am assuming that most posters on this forum live in Canada and have to put into storage their lovingly restored vehicles over the winter months which here in Barrie, Ontario started on November 10 with the first 15cm snowfall. Like most years my jeep will not be driven until maybe mid to late April. Every spring I cringe of having to crank the jeep on/off for about 2-3 minutes before she fires up and runs smoothly. I worry about the starter wearing and most importantly the lack of oil flow and engine wear on first start-up after months of storage.
So, here is the question and info required...if I pull the plugs from my 67' M38A1 and squirt oil into each cylinder and then crank the engine via the crank bolt and air wrench (set on low) will this pre-lube the system and save engine wear on initial start-up?

Regards,

lesk

[motto]

To pre pressurise the lubrication system on an engine that has been standing for some time or has been rebuilt I use an oil pump that is like a bicycle tyre pump but only about half the length and made of brass.
On engines with a bypass filter (virtually all WW2 era vehicle engines had bypass filters) I disconnect the oil line that goes to the filter and attach it to the pump. I then fill the pump with oil, install the piston and rod and force the oil into the engine. You may have to do it a couple of times before you get pressure up but it will not fail. The extra oil in the engine is not enough to worry about.
Using this method also gives you an indication of engine wear based on how long it takes the pump to stroke out.

David

[rob love]

I don't consider 6 months as needing pre-lube. Use the pump handle on your fuel pump to pre-fill the carb and you will save 2 minutes of cranking.



I might pre-lube for a 6-year parked engine, and definitely would for 16 year.

[Les Kovacs]

Thanks Motto and Rob...Rob....pumping the handle has no effect on fuel delivery....on pumping the handle I feel no pressure and I do not hear fuel moving/gurgling. However, the fuel pump does delivery vacuum to operate the wipers which work well.....not sure what's going on.

lesk

[rob love]

I have always wondered if that handle would be innefective if the cam was at it's highest point of the lobe. I know on mine, and many of the vehicles here at the museum, the handle saves a whole lot of cranking.

The dole primer pump would also be effective if it was hooked up, but very few of them are.

[David Herbert]

Les,
If you crank the engine with an air wrench (I assume you mean an air IMPACT wrench) you will do up the crankshaft pulley bolt way tighter than it is designed for. This is not a good idea.
On the other hand if you crank it for 2 to 3 mins with the starter and then it does start, that will very effectively pre lube all the bearings while putting very little load on them as it is taking that long for fuel to get to the carb and the engine will have oil pressure when it does start. If you keep an eye on the oil pressure light when cranking it you should see it go out quite quickly even if the engine has been stood for several years.
I agree with Rob Love that 6 months is just not a long time in this context. Don't worry about the wear on the starter, it will not noticeably shorten it's life to operate it for an extra 3 mins per year !

David

[charlie fitton]

Pull the plugs and "mist" the cylinders with something like WD40, crank like Dave says and watch the gauge or light, plugs back in and you should be good to go.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

Les,
If you crank the engine with an air wrench (I assume you mean an air IMPACT wrench) you will do up the crankshaft pulley bolt way tighter than it is designed for. This is not a good idea.

David

Never drive anything like a crank or even an alternator with an impact wrench. You can break off the shaft from the overtorquing. Don't ask me how I know this.

[Les Kovacs]

Thanks for the input Rob, David and Charlie....as per your combined suggestion(s) I will pull the plugs, lube each cylinder and crank with starter while watching PSI gauge....when PSI is up to 40-50 I will put the plugs back in and try for a first start.

Rob.....thanks for the warning!

Regards,

lesk

[rob love]

Are you talking about trying to get the oil pressure up to 40-50 by cranking? Not sure you will reach that and certainly not necessary. In fact, I don't think any of that is necessary but rather overkill for an engine that has been parked for less than 6 months.

[Mike Cecil]

Standard starting procedure for Leopard AS1 was to hold back the accelerator pedal and crank the engine until the oil pressure started to rise, then let go the pedal so the engine started.

But I agree with Rob about a jeep engine having been sitting for under 6 months. Nothing oily should have 'dried out' in that time, with oil retained in bearings and on journals. The long cranking time should be more than enough to raise a little oil pressure before starting anyway.

I'd think the more likely problem after 6 months would be the gunk from modern fuel left within the carbie after evaporation while in storage. That stuff sticks the needle and seat together and clogs inlets jets. It is why I have a notice in the workshop to 'start engines monthly', and that includes mowers, generator, jeeps, tractor.

Mike

[rob love]

Batter yet, and I have said it more than a few times on this forum, don't use the craptastic ethanol blended fuel in anything with a carburator. Stick to premium fuel and sitting over the winter won't be an issue.

Don't fall victim to the corn lobby, or politicians that want to pass this off as some kind of a green initiative, which it most certainly is not.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

During winter time when I don't drive the Ford, I regularly crank over the engine using the hand crank.

H.

[Lynn Eades]

As Hanno has mentioned his Ford, I think the time is right to bring up this aspect. I would suggest the first thing that could be a problem in an older type engine is that an exhaust valve MIGHT stick, due to rust forming on the dry stem. Not uncommon in flathead Fords and Jeeps.
If things like oil pumps are "in tolerance" then enough oil will usually hang up in there to form a good "seal". the effect being that oil pressure will come up immediately.
More damage (wear) will come from how that engine is warmed up to operating temperature, by which time the clearances in that engine will be correct and minimal wear takes place. Hence the need for a good functioning thermostat for a quick warm up. This also applies in every day use.
Crank journals (main and big ends) will hold oil for ages however gudgeon (crank)pins are more inclined to dry out by comparison. The advice here is a fast idle after start up to get the oil thrown up there.
I hope this helps.

[Phil Waterman]

Lynn

Brings up a very good point on valve stem rust on older engines that are store for long periods. Back in my teens (late 60s) I worked at a summer camp in New Hampshire that stored a number of vehicles for nine months out of the year. Every thing from a 1941 Chris Craft, 48 F3 Ford truck with 337 engine, couple of Covair Greenbrier vans, 53 Chev Station wagon with 216, to couple of Chevy vans with 6 cylinder engines.

From the age of the equipment they must have figure out the storage process. Other than the normal winteriseing. One step sticks in my mind, each engine was fogged out. Once the vehicle was in position for storage up on blocks the engine was started airfilter removed and with the engine running at a fast idle oil was squirted in until the engine stop. Yes there was a lot of smoke. Once they stopped we would pull the battery replace the air filters.

Must have worked pretty good because when I visited in late 80s many of the same vehicles were still in use.

I suspect that oil must have coated everything top end of the engines pretty.

A personal view I hate it when I see or hear people gun the engine once it starts to get the oil pressure up. My approach is to start the engine and let it run under 400-1000 RPM just fast enough to keep running. I like electric fuel pumps for priming the carb.

Having said that I try to run and hopefully drive all my trucks at least one a month during the winter.

Cheers Phil

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

A personal view I hate it when I see or hear people gun the engine once it starts to get the oil pressure up. My approach is to start the engine and let it run under 400-1000 RPM just fast enough to keep running.
Cheers Phil

Conversely, it is a bit much to expect that turning the engine over at hand-cranked speeds will create enough suction in the oil pump inlet to lift sufficient oil from the sump to pre-lube the entire rotating assembly.

I've found that if the battery holds sufficient charge (after a period of storage, it would be sensible to put it on the battery charger for a top-up), then disconnecting the ignition (pull the coil HT lead) and cranking the engine for 10-20 seconds on the starter motor is enough to prime both the fuel pump and the oil system. Reconnect the ignition and BRUUM!

[Les Kovacs]

Hi Rob...I hear you...anything sitting for 6 months or less does not require a pre-lube and yes the Idea was to get the oil pressure up to pre-lube all parts before the first seasonal start......I assumed this would cut down on initial start wear. I do use Shell super with no alcohol (as per no alcohol in gas web site). I just do not want to have to rebuild this engine...I would like the best maintenance for this jeep and that includes oil changes every 500-700 kms (oil is cheap) with trans, transfer and axel oil changes every season (about 1500 miles or 2400 kms). Again, fluids are cheap-rebuilds are not. Any other suggestions to good M38A1 maintenance (outside of the military TM's) would be much appreciated.

Cheers to all for your input...

lesk

[rob love]

With oil changes that frequent, I suspect you will strip the oil plug holes before you suffer from any oil related failures.

Unless you are parking in the rain, or driving through deep deep water, the gear box oil changes are excessive. I would suggest the same thing on your engine, but neither is it good practice to leave old oil in for the winter season.

The Willys engines were only good for about 20,000 good miles, and another 15,000 lower compression miles. But a lot of the engine wear I saw over the years may have been due to poor air filtration over lubrication related failure. Scored cylinders were the norm.

Now you are not likely to be driving in as dusty a condition as the Jeeps were during their service, nor are you likely to be driving for 8 to 12 hour trips at 55 mph. Those were likely the true killers.

If there is one thing that I think would likely improve the life of the engine, I would say it would be to install a paper filter inside the oil bath housing and do away with the oil bath. If you are looking for evidence of which is more effective, have a look to see how many oil bath filters are produced today. Virtually none.

[chris vickery]

What’s wrong with starting your vehicle once a month instead of all this debate over pre lube, oil pressure etc?
I pretty much do this for all the equipment that I own, including everything from my chainsaws, lawn and garden equipment and military vehicles. Sure it looks strange running my push mower out in the snowy driveway but at least when spring comes I never have a problem.
And yes, keeping up with the use of premium non ethanol fuels is the key to success.

[rob love]

The problem with the once a month starts is that it eventually depletes the batteries. As well, if not run until operating temperature it can result in contamination of the oil.

When I was attached to army units, the infantry or artillery would theoretically start their vehicles once a week for stables parade. Understand that these are diesel vehicles, some with no additional source of heat. They could spend the better part of the day boosting and then running the vehicle for a half hour, then shutting it down at 3PM. There was no way the batteries were going to recharge, especially when they were at -15 to -35°C. Then we had the special soldiers who would crank the 5 ton until either the truck started or the solder would fly out of the starter windings. We mechanics would prefer if those guys just left them alone.

[chris vickery]

Devils advocate here, I run my stuff to temperature and also use battery tenders.

[rob love]

It is said that the most wear on an engine occurs in the first minutes of operation, and cold starts are the worst. Some of that is mitigated by using winter grades of oil, but cylinder washing from using the choke on older engine systems is part of the concern. As such, I would just as soon park them in the fall, and not bother them again until spring.

I have a half dozen or more running engines at home, and another 20 or so here at work that I look after. None of them seem to mind being parked for the 6 months of extreme cold that we experience here in Manitoba.

This summer, I dragged over a M577A2 which had been parked outside since it left the service around 2007. I was preparing it for a backdrop on one of the unit's parades. After cleaning it up and painting it, and just before towing it over to the unit, I hooked a slave cable to it to see if it would still run. I expected to crank it for a bit, but it surprised me by firing on the first crank....this was after over 10 years parked. Next summer I'll go a little further on it and add it to the running fleet here at the museum.

[Dave Schindel]

I would agree with Rob. if it's only 6 months,park it and leave it alone til spring.Cold starts are hard on moving parts , the fewer cold starts the better.as for pre-lubing , I know some race engine builders/owners do that but those are high perf. engines with close tollerances and high stress loads. Not really necessary for what we work with.Just my .02cents. I've been an auto tech for over 35 yrs and the best thing you can do is timely oil and filter changes.

[Les Kovacs]

Thanks Rob....from now on the jeep will be parked after the first snow and not started until after the last snow & salt of off the road (late Nov. to Mid-April-here in Barrie). Wow....the engine lasting only 20,000 good miles is disappointing.....I am assuming you are also referring to the 67' Kaiser built CDN2?....was this due to poor maintenance of just hurried engine design and does it also refer to the civilian CJ series with the same engine?
I found a youtube video on how and what parts are required for conversion to a paper filter element but I am not sure if it is for an L head engine? Any hints on where to find info to convert an oil to paper element for an F head engine with a M151 air filter housing?


Thanks for everyone's input,

lesk

[rob love]

The engine design dates back to the 30s. It was a car engine improved for use in the first Jeeps. There were some changes to the L head (commonly called flathead) engines for the M38, and to squeeze 12 more horsepower out of the engine, the intake valves were moved into the head (called an F head), resulting in the Hurricane. as used in the M38A1s. This was in the very early 50s. It was the same engine as in the 1971 M38A1Cdn3 engines. Below the early 50s head, you still had the late 30s mechanical design. The weaknesses were not something just in the military models, but rather the fairly early engine technology. Long piston stroke, poor air filtration, non-replaceable cam bearings which were part of the block...

I think time magazine had a story one time about Ronald Regan's old Willys Jeep he had on his property. The article mentioned something about it never really having any real problems aside from an engine replacement at some similar low mileage.

I'll likely be putting in a paper filter into my own Jeep this summer. Basically, you need to gut your aircleaner, and fine a cylindrical air filter with an appropriate size opening to match up to the top of the aircleaner. You will have to run a threaded rod down through with a rubber washer, a steel washer, and a wingnut to hold it up against the top. I have seen a few stories about this in the various forums.

The M151A2 filter housing was very nearly the same as the Cdn2 and Cdn3 air filter housings. If I recall, the mounting brackets were a bit different, there was a bit more plumbing for the smog control, and I think the bottom cup had an indentation for the fender(?). I would suggest that whatever filter the M38A1Cdn2 or 3 might use, will also fit the M151A2 filter housing.

One thing that will likely add to the longevity of our engines over the militiaries use is that we have to pay for the repairs, so we generally do not drive them as hard as they did in the military. As a young militiaman, I remember where we would brag that we could get certain jeeps up to the P in miles Per Hour on the speedometer. It had to be murder on those long stroke engines. Nowadays, I do not go over 50 when I drive my Jeep down the highway to work.

[Les Kovacs]

Hi Rob....thanks for the lengthy and detailed response as to the F 134 longevity. I have heard about the poor longevity of the L head design but did not think that it applied to the F head.....I assumed that the F head was better as it was also being used for civilian use.
There is an oil to paper conversion for the MB/GPW air filter using a Fram/Wix CA3445/42036 cylindrical paper air filter with two plumbing rubber grommets 5 3/8 od x 3 1 /2 id x 1 " thick with no air filter housing alterations....not sure if this works for the CDN2 filter housing.
Along with the very frequent oil replacement I have magnetic oil drain plugs on both axles, trans/transfer and oil pan.
There are many 60 & 80 km/hr lazy farm/country roads (no gravel) outside of Barrie that lead to other cities so I keep speeds to around 30-40 MPH and have only taken her up to 50 MPH once or twice. My biweekly drives are usually 20 to 80 kms in length. I also clean the air filter housing once a year (average 1200-1400 miles) and replace the cup oil as well.

Thanks a bunch for the info,

lesk

[rob love]

That is the type of system you want to set up with, but I suspect you can go to a larger filter than what you have shown, with the late M38A1 or M151A2 housings.

If you measure the dimensions inside the housing, you might be able to google up a suitable air filter.