Cab 11 C15 and 2A1 body - Page 3

cletrac (RIP) · #61 13-09-07, 23:08

The manual was issued October 1941 but revised January 1942. If you compare these drawings with the previous factory photos you can see by the mirrors and wheel bolts etc that they traced the drawings off those photos.

cletrac (RIP) · #62 13-09-07, 23:34

This is the list of models using the 2A1
They all use three of the division board assemblies that are pictured between the wheel wells on the rear view.
All but the GS version use three hoopstick assemblies (top bows) for the top canvas. The GS uses a different canvas so that'll be the one shown on the 2B1 body earlier in this thread,
The GS and the van don't use any seat assemblies in the box. The cable layer and anti aircraft use four seats and the personnel carrier uses two.The personnel carrier also has four bench seats along the sides that none of the others use.
The anti aircraft also has two ammo case carrier assemblies and two rifle clip rack assemblies plus a spare wheel carrier assembly.

It wasn't the anti aircraft but the anti tank tractor that had these extras.

Now for a few questions.
What kinds of guns did the anti aircraft and anti tank version use? I assume it'd be one or two bren guns on some kind of mount and one or two Boyes seeing as we're talking 1940.
What kind of gun did the anti-tank tractor pull? Here I'd assume a 2 pounder. With the truck being a 4x2 you wouldn't want to have anything much bigger.
Are there any pix available showing any of these variants?

cletrac (RIP) · #63 16-09-07, 04:33

I answered my own question about the anti tank tractor. This pic of a 15 cwt pulling a 6 pounder is off Colin Stevens website. I can't tell if it's a 2A1 or 2B1 body but it's one or the other. I wonder if they used a winch on this tractor version. A higher resolution copy of this pic would be nice! The two soldiers near the front must be standing on the tool box.
Now I just have to come up with a pic of the AAAT1 with an anti-aircraft setup in the back.
All of these body variants were used with the 2B1 bodies on the cab 12s too. In the body parts list manual it says to use the 2B1 if replacing the whole 2A1 body as it's a direct replacement.
According to the manual, the 2A1 and the 2B1 both use two long and two short U-bolts to hold the body to the frame.

cletrac (RIP) · #64 16-09-07, 05:12

The AAAT must have used a system like one of these as far as I can figure. That MG mount in the 8 cwt is probably out of place, though. I suppose you could have ended up with one as a field mod.

Grant Bowker · #65 16-09-07, 13:21

All CMP winches I'm aware of were driven from the transfer case. C15, as 4x2 had no transfer case, so it would have had to drive from the PTO opening in the transmission, which I don't recall having seen.
Also in the photo above, I wonder whether the tow vehicle is actually 4x2, the relation between the tire, bumper and fender looks more like 4x4 to me.

cletrac (RIP) · #66 16-09-07, 15:57

You're likely right about the winch. According to that manual the anti-tank tractor came in both 4x2 and 4x4 versions. I thought the pic was of a 4x4 too.

cletrac (RIP) · #67 18-09-07, 05:57

I went for a tour today and checked out some CMPs. I found some 2A1 parts and took pix and measurements. Here's an original top bow. The background scenery is fairly interesting too. When I make some drawings I'll post them with the measurements.

cletrac (RIP) · #68 18-09-07, 06:01

These were the only small parts that were there. That one piece of side board is over 6" wide so the Canadian bodies didn't use all 3 1/2" boards like the Brits used.

cletrac (RIP) · #69 18-09-07, 06:06

This tool box has been shortened on one end but I got all the measurements. It never had a spare tire mount on it.

cletrac (RIP) · #70 18-09-07, 06:10

This is the data plate on the C15 (no vents). I've posted the serial number before but no pic.
There's also a 2B1 box that I'm going to get but I'll post pix on the latest acquisition thread.

Hanno Spoelstra · #71 18-09-07, 21:44

David, great thread you've got going here.

Quote:

Originally posted by cletrac
I wonder if they used a winch on this tractor version.

The 15-cwt anti-tank gun tractor did not have a winch.

H.

Hanno Spoelstra · #72 18-09-07, 21:45

Quote:

Originally posted by cletrac
The personnel carrier also has four bench seats along the sides that none of the others use.

David,

Do you have more detials about those bench seats fitted to the personnel carrier. My F15A is a PERS-3 and I'd like to fit the proper seats to the rear bed.

Thanks,
Hanno

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #73 18-09-07, 23:37

Quote:

Originally posted by cletrac
I answered my own question about the anti tank tractor. This pic of a 15 cwt pulling a 6 pounder is off Colin Stevens website. I can't tell if it's a 2A1 or 2B1 body but it's one or the other. I wonder if they used a winch on this tractor version. A higher resolution copy of this pic would be nice! The two soldiers near the front must be standing on the tool box.
Now I just have to come up with a pic of the AAAT1 with an anti-aircraft setup in the back.
All of these body variants were used with the 2B1 bodies on the cab 12s too. In the body parts list manual it says to use the 2B1 if replacing the whole 2A1 body as it's a direct replacement.
According to the manual, the 2A1 and the 2B1 both use two long and two short U-bolts to hold the body to the frame.

Here's another pic of a 15cwt pulling a 6 pdr in Italy. I know for a fact the 48th Highlanders used them even into Holland, where they received ONE T-16, which they hated for its lack of crew space and weather protection. This veh sports the hand-painted number 68, which if a TAC sign, is the Carleton & Yorks.

The pic isn't much clearer, but maybe you can discern a little bit more of the box; all I was thinking about was using a 216 to pull all that weight!

cletrac (RIP) · #74 19-09-07, 03:30

Hanno, the only info I have is from the parts manual so I'll post the two pages that show the different fittings on the various models. The seats mentioned in this first page are ordinary CMP seats. The ones in the second page are the special personnel bench seats.
My impression is that the benches would go along the sides and over the wheel wells and the CMP seats would be in the middle, but I've been wrong before!

cletrac (RIP) · #75 19-09-07, 06:09

Geoff, I doctored your pic in Photoshop to try getting stuff a little clearer. That number looks more like it was written on the photo rather than painted on the truck. The shadows don't seem to go over the number like they should.
I can't quite decide whether I can see some fairleads there or not. That chain is coming out at the centre of the bumper where the fairleads would be and the cable is hooked between the D-rings. It looks like there's some vertical irons where the fairleads should be. If they had a winch they'd need the 2 speed transfer case to have the PTO. My 11 cab F15A ex-firetruck has a 2- speed transfer case in it with the PTO so I'll have to check and see if it looks original or not.
It also looks like the soldiers behind the cab have seats there.

cletrac (RIP) · #76 19-09-07, 08:23

On a search for 6 pounders I came up with this pic. The page didn't mention a location. I wonder if the interior fittings are proper. The parts list mention a spare tire holder that's likely for a spare for the gun.

cletrac (RIP) · #77 21-09-07, 06:03

I'm trying to get all info I can find on the 2A1 on this thread so I might as well post the remaining three parts list pages.

The parts numbers are the same as in the previous parts list drawings.

Colin Macgregor Stevens · #78 23-09-07, 08:31

I found an original 2A1 body in dry Saskatchewan farm area near Estevan, Saskatchewan (south east corner of the province) and brought it out to British Columbia in 1986. I later traded it to Gary Moonie of Victoria for use as a pattern to make the rear body for his prototype (only key difference we noted was tailgate on prototypes did not have notch cut out in top). All the metal fittings were there. An interesting detail you won't note in photos is that each side plank was grooved on the edges and a thin piece of wood fit into it to act as a draft seal between the big planks. I did take lots of photos of it as found and then as dismantled.
A French collector once wrote to me as he had a 15 Cwt Cab 11 with original wooden 2A1 box. I think his had a German Army rebuild plate.

I also used to own the original wooden tool box (large one behind the cab). Correct for use in front of the 2A1 cargo box. There was no spare tire as they had runflats. This tool box sold with my C15A to a collector in Turleford, and was later reported to be in the hands of another collector. That was a Cab 13 with an original 2H1 body (wooden knock-down). As I recall this had a canvas cov er over the wooden likd.

Colin Macgregor Stevens · #79 23-09-07, 08:48

This photo is Library and Archives Canada photo 24170 and the truck was with the Carlton and York Regiment. The archives did not provide the caption for the photo when I bought an 8x10 about 20 years ago.

The markings are on the truck. Yes, they are very crude and this crudeness was not normal.

68 is the unit sign.

The maple leaf on port (left) side opf truck is the formation sign.

42/1 is the unit serial and gives positive ID of the unit, without having to know any of the colours.

I believe the photo is taken in Italy, that there is a roundel on the roof (red/white/blue/vellow)[That glare makes confirmation dificult] and on the passenger window there is a circular marking.

Note Bren Gun on truck roof and a Lee Enfield. Also the 6 Pr cleaning rod tied to the top of the truck bows. The nuzzle of the 6 Pr is just visible henind the truck. There is also a jeep on the left covered by bystanders.

edited by moderator: click on image for large size scan

cletrac (RIP) · #80 23-09-07, 16:05

Here's an early prototype one without the tailgate cutout from Blueprint for Victory. The cab and front sheet metal are quite different too.
Colin, could I get you to post those 2A1 pix or else email copies to me? There are still quite a few details that I haven't worked out.

Colin Macgregor Stevens · #81 23-09-07, 17:35

Cletrac

Here is another photo from my web site showing the tail-end of a Frod "prototype" 15 Cwt taken Jan 5, 1941 at Niagara Camp, Ontario. My father is standing on the far right.

Photo may not appear here. You can also find it on my web site at: Colin Stevens' CMP Page

Please send me your e-mail address and I shall look for the negatives.

Colin Stevens
seaforth72 (at) gmail.com

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #82 23-09-07, 18:26

I couldn't get your original url to open on the Forum either, so I downloaded, lightened and resaved your pic on MLU and inserted that instead.

Colin Macgregor Stevens · #83 23-09-07, 19:46

Cletrac noted: "It also looks like the soldiers behind the cab have seats there."

I do not think that this is the case. I believe the soldiers in the photo are sitting on the spare tire. Jerricans have been tied in place on top of the long tool box and form nice foot rests.

Here is my old C15 given the same treatment.

This truck is now in the Canadian War Museum in the most prominent position - on top of the bridgelaying tank! It also appears in a Canadian War Museum photo taken at Vimy House and still in use on the web at the Lincoln and Welland Regiment Museum. Old Bill is second from the left. Unit serial 37/1 for the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada.

For the record, the WD number on the doors is ORIGINAL (though repainted) Z5453378 The other markings are authentic but as this truck went through a British Army rebuild in 1948 all other markings were erased so its British Army use is unknown. It is an example of CMPs built for the British. It was donated to the CWM by Brian Wood of Vancouver, BC.

cletrac (RIP) · #84 24-09-07, 06:37

I found a couple of pix of Morris 15 cwts in the antiaircraft role. They are dated 1939 and seeing as how the Canadians followed British practice, the AAAT CMPs were likely outfitted the same. The pix I posted earlier with the twin Brens might have been a later development.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #85 24-09-07, 11:06

Interesting that the two Cameron Highlanders' C.8T Mk III photos have been posted as I have a print of the top one, and am using in in ROADSCENE magazine, Military Scene.

As regards the "Moonie" Ford, and the boxed one, we now know that the latter was photographed in February 1940 at Windsor, presumably as trials for future shipmments to the CMD in Southampton though did that one get shipped in the end? Can I please also confirm that there were up to 50 of these 1940 G/S Fords, and they were not prototypes as such but predecessors of the DND-pattern trucks. However, for all intents and purposes they were pilot models, and apart from the hood/bonnet/engine cover louvres and the seperate wings/fenders, they really did set the scene for series production about say two months later.

cletrac (RIP) · #86 17-10-07, 04:34

I was talking to a fellow CMP enthusiast in Swift Current a while ago and he filled me in on some of the recent history of my C15. It was on a farm about 50 miles west of Swift Current where it was used to haul water. The farmer had a long tank on it so he moved the rear springs as far back as he could get them. From there it went to the Lancaster museum in Nanton, Alberta where it was surplus to their needs. They traded it along with some other stuff to a museum in Manitoba but I'm not sure which one. This museum sold or traded it off and it eventually ended up with me. The carrier remains I got took a similar route too.

cletrac (RIP) · #87 13-11-07, 03:18

Here's a piece of wood off an original 2A1 that shows the groove in the edges of the boards. The grooves are 1/4" x 1/2" and hold a 1/4" x 1" stick that acts like a tongue and groove to hold things together. The boards are a full inch thick, too, where the British boxes used 7/8" boards for the sides.
I also have an original top bow to use as a pattern. These bows are made of two pieces of pipe and are welded together in the middle. This makes them a lot easier to reproduce since it's hard to get a bend in the exact place you want it.

cletrac (RIP) · #88 16-03-08, 20:13

This is the only photo I've seen of a cab 11 AAAT. It's an AAAT2 from this thread.
http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...t=motley+mount

Dennis Gelean (RIP) · #89 20-03-08, 07:07

Learning from this the thread, But would like to know the difference between a 2K1 body and a Wire=5 body??
What is the meaning Cab 11,12,13,14, 15 etc is this referring to the roof hatch?
My f15a gs, F15a WT,C15a gs all have the same square hatch.
Lots to learn, new on forum, better than a dictionary.
Would like to buy a Glossary of all the terms if there is one.
dennis gelean dgelean@xplornet.com 2can on ebay

cletrac (RIP) · #90 20-03-08, 07:30

The CMPs with the windshields leaning back are Cab 11 or Cab 12. The Cab 11s were made in 1940 and had no roof hatch and a very small opening engine hood. The Cab 12s were made in 1941 and had a square roof hatch and a larger engine hood. The Cab 13s had the windshield sloping forward and the 1942 to 1944 models had square roof hatches while the late 1944 and 1945 models had the round roof hatch.
2K1 is the model name for the house type wireless body and 15441-M-Wire-5 is the model name for the truck with the 2K1 body on it.