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Old 29-12-15, 16:43
rob love rob love is online now
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Default Dischargers, smoke generator, 4 inch

I happened across this manual while putting away duplicate books for in the library here in the RCA Museum. It answered a few questions about the 4 inch dischargers, such as how far the smoke cannister was projected (A: aprox 125 yards). I don't have access to the room with the scanner right now, and as well the book is pretty new so I don't want to fold the pages over, so you'll have to be happy with photographs.

The manual also covers various 2 inch dischargers as noted on the index page, however I have not copied those pages. If someone really wants to see them, let me know and when I get time I can photograph those as well.
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File Type: jpg DSC00147.JPG (98.0 KB, 369 views)
File Type: jpg DSC00150.JPG (108.2 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg DSC00151.jpg (45.6 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg DSC00152.jpg (72.3 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg DSC00153.jpg (81.5 KB, 46 views)
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  #2  
Old 29-12-15, 16:45
rob love rob love is online now
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Last two pages. Last page covers the ammunition. The last photo is from the internet and shows the crate which would include 10 smoke rounds, 12 covers for the muzzle (they were expendable: the QM did not expect you to reach out under fire and remove it) as well as 14 ballistite .303 cartridges to launch them.

Some good links on the ammunition: http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/thread...generator-no-8

http://www.lexpev.nl/grenades/europe...rsmokeno8.html
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File Type: jpg DSC00154.jpg (50.0 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg DSC00155.jpg (56.1 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg smokegeneratorno8mk602.jpg (36.0 KB, 369 views)

Last edited by rob love; 29-12-15 at 17:07.
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Old 29-12-15, 20:27
eddy8men eddy8men is offline
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very interesting, thanks for posting it up
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Old 31-12-15, 00:47
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Default smoke discharger

robe, do you know, if these smoke discharger canisters are available anywhere, inert ones of course.

Kevin.
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Old 31-12-15, 04:43
rob love rob love is online now
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Had a look online and they seem pretty rare. I'm thinking a guy may end up painting some soup cans olive green and put the stenciling on them. I saw one on ebay back when ebay sold that kind of stuff, and it did not go cheap.

There is a guy on Canadiangunnutz has a pair of No24 Mk2 Smoke Generator canisters and somehow feels they are worth $1500 for the pair.
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Old 31-12-15, 05:16
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Robert Bergeron Robert Bergeron is offline
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Rob,

I also thank you very much for posting on this most perplexing subject.

We have essentialy the same with our AFV's today.

Smoke grenade dischargers with disposable covers on the LAV's are an example..

Explains what and how the 4'' 's were used on our Carriers.

Very generous of your time . Thanks
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Old 31-12-15, 07:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
Had a look online and they seem pretty rare. I'm thinking a guy may end up painting some soup cans olive green and put the stenciling on them. I saw one on ebay back when ebay sold that kind of stuff, and it did not go cheap.

There is a guy on Canadiangunnutz has a pair of No24 Mk2 Smoke Generator canisters and somehow feels they are worth $1500 for the pair.
My Brother in law runs his own small car repair business and I wondered about asking him to save all the old screw on oil filters till I found one the right size for painting up as a dummy to stick out the end of my discharger

Ron
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Old 03-01-16, 23:19
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
I happened across this manual while putting away duplicate books for in the library here in the RCA Museum. It answered a few questions about the 4 inch dischargers, such as how far the smoke cannister was projected (A: aprox 125 yards). I don't have access to the room with the scanner right now, and as well the book is pretty new so I don't want to fold the pages over, so you'll have to be happy with photographs.

The manual also covers various 2 inch dischargers as noted on the index page, however I have not copied those pages. If someone really wants to see them, let me know and when I get time I can photograph those as well.
The bad news for anyone in the UK is that that particular smoke discharger will come under Section 5 of the act, because it's short enough to be classed as a pistol. (So if you want one, or want a gunsmith to make you one out of No.1 Rifle parts, it will have to be deactivated and welded into a single lump.)

This is probably just as well, since if it can launch a can of soup 125 yards it's not something you want to stand in front of.

The canisters themselves are probably s5 as well, since the wartime ones were most likely white phosphorus filled (even the later HC ones would be fairly nasty in a confined space - powdered zinc and hexachloroethane, I think (has to be manufactured in very dry conditions as it can be initiated by water)).

Chris.
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Old 03-01-16, 23:33
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In the USA it is classed as a short barrel rifle (SBR per ATF) so also a device that has to be registered but still very legal to own. The smoke generator could probably be fabricated from an automobile oil filter, just a matter of finding one of comparable dimensions. Could probably hog out the internal paper filter and replace with smoke composition and some cannon fuze into the center with a black powder booster that would light from the blast of a grenade launching blank.
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Old 03-01-16, 23:40
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Attached image was downloaded from another thread a long time ago but figure it should be part of this discussion to consolidate information.
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  #11  
Old 04-01-16, 00:25
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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"hexachloroethane" Chris, is this the stuff in my tooth paste?
Do I need a different brand?
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Old 04-01-16, 00:48
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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A few years ago I wrote the Enfield Arsenal in England asking about these dischargers and canisters and eventually got quite a package of material back from them including machinists drawings for both the Ross Rifle and Enfield based versions. I believe the package also included detail drawings for the canisters. Should still be in a filing cabinet downstairs somewhere. The centre base of the canisters had a very simple detonator fitted which was basically two thin metal discs with a sandwich of something like mercury fulminate in the middle. The pressure blast of the firing cartridge was sufficient to set the detonator off, thereby igniting the propellant charge. Probably not an item you would want to drop.

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Old 04-01-16, 00:52
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Eades View Post
"hexachloroethane" Chris, is this the stuff in my tooth paste?
Do I need a different brand?
Yes, and no.

It's commonly used as a disinfectant/antibacterial ingredient and is perfectly OK in that application (very low concentration).

It's very nasty in screening smoke (HC) because the reaction products are lots of zinc chloride (corrosive), with some hydrochloric acid (ditto), and also carbon monoxide and phosgene (carbonyl chloride (COCl2)) mixed in.

Still much better than phosphorus smokes, though.

Chris.

Last edited by Chris Suslowicz; 04-01-16 at 00:53. Reason: typo
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Old 04-01-16, 04:58
Jim Burrill Jim Burrill is offline
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As David Gordon says, we can have a live, fireable discharger here.

I have plans afoot to make an actual smoke canister that meets local reenactment safety guidelines.

Essentially, smoke compound as used for paintball games filling a cardboard cylinder, all made with no metal parts and weighing no more than one pound.

A blank .303 to ignite it and throw it down range a bit. Not an accurate tactical recreation in distance and duration, but usable for reenacting displays.

Intend to mount them on the Humber Mk4 Armoured car.
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Old 04-01-16, 07:46
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Thanks Marco. I'll give the dimensions to my brother in law to save him saving all those wrong size oil filters. Ron
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Old 08-01-16, 23:14
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Burrill View Post
As David Gordon says, we can have a live, fireable discharger here.

I have plans afoot to make an actual smoke canister that meets local reenactment safety guidelines.

Essentially, smoke compound as used for paintball games filling a cardboard cylinder, all made with no metal parts and weighing no more than one pound.

A blank .303 to ignite it and throw it down range a bit. Not an accurate tactical recreation in distance and duration, but usable for reenacting displays.

Intend to mount them on the Humber Mk4 Armoured car.
Hmmm....

Have a word with your local pyrotechnics/firework manufacturer, since the obvious choice is a 4" cylindrical shell, suitably modified (no lifting charge bag/cone and a very short delay fuse - mainly to prevent the launch charge from blowing straight through and dismantling the shell before it leaves the tube) and loaded with your smoke composition and (obviously) no bursting charge - vents needed to let the smoke out, of course! Launch with a blank cartridge loaded with coarse grained black powder - one of the "cannon" grades ought to do it, because you don't want high velocity. (Nor anyone downrange of it!) And BE CAREFUL!

It would be completely illegal to produce these in the UK (unless you hold a manufacturing licence, etc.), so don't even think about it. (See the various bits of legislation (Explosives Act(s), Control Of Explosives Regulations, HSE rules, etc.) The quantity required would be commercially uneconomical, including having them made in China, (without considering the UK testing required (at your expense) before they would be allowed into the country).

Pyrotechnic manufacture being a permitted hobby/small business in parts of the USA means that you could probably get something suitable produced in small batches.

Careful testing is essential: some smoke compositions do not play nicely if firmly initiated (or overly contained - even a heap may suffice) and can explode(1). Especially test what happens if the delay element is omitted and the lifting charge blows straight through into the smoke composition!(2)

Chris. (4)
(1) Umpteen(3) years ago we discovered what would happen if theatrical smoke powder was used in excessive quantities (or added to flash powder) - you get more bang than you bargained for and very little smoke.
(2) I recall a 75mm cylinder maroon that went off in the tube, entirely too close to where I was standing, due to the "lift" blowing through or a faulty delay element. I Do Not Want To Experience That Again!
(3) Back in 1984, I think... or possibly 1982.
(4) BPA Level 2, which means I get to do the risk assessments for our displays.
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