Sherman V CT150503 at Trois-Rivières, Québec

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

Despite having read through 1/War Trophy/1 numerous times, I have only just noticed a significant discrepancy regarding "Cathy".

The documents state that CT150503 was a 22 CAR (Canadian Grenadier Guards) tank, not a 12 CAR (Three Rivers Regiment) tank.

Can anyone find close-up images of the plaque in front of "Cathy" to read the full inscription?

Colin, this is all I could find. This plaque commemorates the men of the 12CAR who gave their lives in WW2 - May They RIP
No reference is made on the plaque to the Sherman which is part of the memorial. Maybe that is where the confusion came from: CT150503 was an ex-22 CAR Sherman which somehow ended up as a memorial to the 12 CAR, which is why people now assume it is an ex-12 CAR Sherman?

Why did it not stay in the custody of the 22CAR and why was it fitted with a 17-pdr gun?

Again, additional research is required.



Source: https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/pos...anada-6-quebec

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Some more searching on the internet yielded more info: The Canadian Virtual Military Museum explains:

"This Sherman on display at Trois-Rivières, Québec, Canada, is Sherman V (M4A4) CT150503, one of four "war trophy" Shermans shipped from Europe to Canada after WW2. Since this photo was taken, this tank has been further restored and relocated elsewhere on the same property.

According to the curator of the Three Rivers Regiment, "when the Sherman arrived in Canada for the regiment, it had no gun barrel . The regimental museum had a barrel fitted to the turret.

The name "CATHY" is in fact the name of an officer's wife. The Three Rivers Regiment never have a Sherman named "CATHY" in service."

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

Apparently The ‘52 Natural’ was the Regimental Newspaper of the Canadian Grenadier Guards.

They note: "recent issue of the Maple Leaf have featured pictures of various machines of war that have made the long trip through from D Day to VE Day. Through no fault of ours were are unable to qualify for this D to VE Day."

"Ginny", or "Old Ginny", landed in France on 26 July 1944 with the 22nd Armoured Regiment (The Canadian Grenadier Guards) as part of the 4th Armoured Brigade, 4th Canadian Armoured Division, and continued to fight in North West Europe until the end of the war.

[Colin Alford]

Hanno,

I have compiled more documents, and will post them soon.

Colin

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

I have compiled more documents, and will post them soon.

Thanks Colin, am looking forward to it.

Meanwhile, Joe DeMarco sent me a small photo of another plaque:

There is (or was) a reference to Cathy on the plaque by the tank, "The Three Rivers Regiment used this Sherman Battle Tank during the Second World War in Sicily, Italy and Netherlands.

The information on that plaque is just plain wrong, and should be corrected. It may be the same sort of case as what happened to Sherman V "Argyll Roger" at Oosterbeek. That has a made-up identity as well, based on ignorance and the will to please some stakeholders, rather than at least trying to get the facts about its history right.

[Ed Storey]

I wonder if the CGG know or even care that their Sherman "Ginny" has been appropriated by the TTR and given a complete BS back story along with a fake 17-pdr gun? Nothing surprises me when it comes to historical misinterpretation of vehicle artefacts in Canada, but this has to be the worst case I have ever seen.

[Ed Storey]

In a quirky twist of fate, a number of years ago the Canadian Grenadier Guards painted up a post-WWII M4A2E8 Sherman in wartime markings and placed it on a nice interlocking stone pad on the road leading into the Connaught Ranges Primary Training Centre which is located on the western outskirts of Ottawa. The Sherman is gone, having been replaced with a M109A4, although the plaque still remains. Only in Canada....

I am not a fan of outdoor display of military vehicles, but this would probably have been a better spot for a refurbished "Ginny", aka now "Cathy" then posing as a Three Rivers Regiment tank in Trois-Rivières.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Agree Ed, that's why the research done on this (and other) forum is so important. By doing "crowd research" where everyone chips in with the snippets & chunks of info they have individually, the end result paints a complete picture.

Re. the M4A2E8 which was at Quebec, Colin posted an interesting link:

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

I also found this: https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remem...s/details/7102

Has the actual regiment that operated this tank been forgotten through the passage of time?

The note on that page is interesting:

"Note: This tank is no longer present at the Connaught Range Site. It was reclaimed by the Canadian War Museum and given to an indiviudal in Calgary, AB."

So the CWM gave a Sherman tank to an individual?!? Isn't that a sign of nepotism? At least they are transparent about it...

[Colin Alford]

Ed/Hanno,

My intent is to compile this information to send to the affected Regiments/Regimental Associations so that they are aware of the historical documents. I suspect that between Jan 1946 (arrival of tank in Canada), and Nov 1955 (dedication of TRR Tankers Memorial) that the corporate memory of who the tank served with was lost. It also appears that the claims that the tank actually served with 12 CAR are relatively modern (most likely based on Lore).

The following posts detail all of the documents that I have found. I will attempt to clean it up and add some images later.

Colin

[Colin Alford]

War Trophy Tank Sherman V (M4A4 75mm) CT 150503

On 13 Nov 1955, CT 150503 with nickname “Cathy” was dedicated as a monument to the Three Rivers Regiment (12th Canadian Armoured Regiment (12 CAR)). At some point after the dedication a new plaque was added to the memorial which claims that this tank served with 12 CAR in Sicily, Italy and the Netherlands. I believe the claim that this tank served with 12 CAR to be incorrect.

I will attempt to prove that CT 150503 actually served with 22 Canadian Armoured Regiment - The Canadian Grenadier Guards (22 CAR) with the nickname “Ginny”

Sources:
1. Canadian Military Headquarters, London (CMHQ) file “1/War Trophy/1” (Extent of file: images 589 to 755) https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...96/589?r=0&s=1
2. War Diary – 22nd Canadian Armoured Regiment – Canadian Grenadier Guards (22 CAR)
3. War Diary – 25th Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment – The Elgin Regiment (25 CADR)
4. Directorate of Movements file “HQS-63-310-316, Ships Eastbound Cargo Vessels – S.S. Riverview Park, 5 Jan 46, Antwerp to St-John.” (Extent of file: images 4311 to 4357) https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...0/4311?r=3&s=2
5. The Montreal Gazette, 16 January 1946 https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...rontpage&hl=en
6. The St. Maurice Valley Chronicle, 10 Nov 1955 https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...rontpage&hl=en

[Colin Alford]

Chronology:

Early Jun 1944 (while 22 CAR was still in England): T 150503 listed as on-strength with 3 Sqn, 22 CAR as call-sign 22. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t12727/629

16 Jun 1945: “Fifty tank transporters came in this evening and relieved us of all of 1 and 2 Sqn tanks, and 11 of 3 Sqn’s. We now have left just 8- 3 Sqn tanks and 4 RHQ tanks and 11 Recce tanks (10 Stuarts and 1 Chaffee)” https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...30/849?r=1&s=2

(Note: B Sqn 25 CADR turned-over 49 ex-22 CAR tanks to 264 Special Delivery Squadron Royal Armoured Corps between 18 and 20 Jun 1945. CT 150503 was not among those 49. It is unlikely that CT 150503 was among the 11 - 3 Sqn tanks passed to B Sqn 25 CADR on 16 Jun 1945.)

21 Jun 1945: “First thing this morning all the wallabies, the RHQ tanks and 7 of the 3 Sqn tanks were loaded on transporters and taken away. We now have left 1 x 75mm of 3 Sqn which is to be used on a demonstration and 11 Recce tanks (10 Stuarts and 1 Chaffee)
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...30/850?r=1&s=2

(Note: It is most likely that CT150503 was one of the 7 – 3 Sqn tanks from 22 CAR that passed to 25 CADR on 21 Jun 1945)

27 Jun 1945 – CT 150503 (ex-22 CAR) passed through B Sqn 25 CADR to 264 Special Delivery Squadron Royal Armoured Corps. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...42/896?r=0&s=3

11 Jul 1945 – “A Record in Unbroken Service” published in “The ’52 Natural’ Voice of the Canadian Grenadier Guards” regimental newspaper.
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...30/959?r=0&s=2

[Colin Alford]

18 Aug 1945 – Formal request from 22 CAR for permission to return 2 Sherman tanks to Canada (includes CT150503) https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t17896/687

23 Aug 1945 – Letter discussing 22 CAR request to return 2 Sherman tanks to Canada. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t17896/686

31 Aug 1945 – Letter from Brigadier Macklin to Chief of Staff CMHQ recommending that 22 CAR only be approved to return 1 tank to Canada. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t17896/688

03 Sep 1945 – Message from CMHQ to DND regarding 22 CAR request to return 2 Sherman tanks to Canada with recommendation that permission should only be granted to return one of the tanks. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t17896/689

07 Sep 1945 – DND replies to CMHQ that recommendation of only authorizing one tank for 22 CAR is approved to be shipped at low priority. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t17896/690

[Colin Alford]

08 Sep 1945 – Message from CMHQ to HQ CFN that DND has approved return of only one Sherman tank for 22 CAR museum. Choice between the two may be made by unit. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t17896/691


14 Dec 1945 – Message from Headquarters Canadian Forces Netherlands to Headquarters British Army of the Rhine requesting confirmation that CT150503 (among other “frozen” Regimental Trophies) may be made available for immediate shipment Ex Antwerp.
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...96/722?r=0&s=3

31 Dec 1945 – CT 150503 passed from 167 Vehicle Park through 165 Transit Vehicle Park to Canadian Military Headquarters for loading on S.S. Riverview Park https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...0/4351?r=3&s=2

31 Dec 1945 – CT 150503 entered on Bill of Lading for S.S. Riverview Park
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...0/4343?r=3&s=2

05 Jan 1946 – Message from CANMILITRY (CMHQ) to DEFENSOR (NDHQ) advising CT 150503 was loaded onboard SS Riverview Park and consigned to District Ordnance Officer, Militia District 4 for 22 CAR: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...96/730?r=0&s=3

[Colin Alford]

16 Jan 1946 – Condensed version of article from “52 Natural” published in Montreal Gazette. “It is understood she is to be “repatriated” and spend her old age, an honoured guest in the Guards’ Armoury”:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...rontpage&hl=en

18 Jan 1946 – S.S. Riverview Park docked at West St. John, New Brunswick. CT 150503 was loaded onto Canadian National Rail Car CN-661834 on 20 Jan 1946 consigned to District Ordnance Officer, Militia District 4, Montreal, Que. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_c5730/4326

13 Nov 1955 – The Three Rivers Regiment (12 CAR) Tankers Memorial is unveiled. “The plaque …is mounted on the front of a Sherman Tank” https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...rontpage&hl=en

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

The note on that page is interesting:

"Note: This tank is no longer present at the Connaught Range Site. It was reclaimed by the Canadian War Museum and given to an indiviudal in Calgary, AB."

So the CWM gave a Sherman tank to an individual?!? Isn't that a sign of nepotism? At least they are transparent about it...

I would be interested in finding out the exact details of any vehicle transfer from the CWM before jumping to any conclusions; for as well have seen with "Ginny", it does not take long for a story to get changed.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

Ed/Hanno,

My intent is to compile this information to send to the affected Regiments/Regimental Associations so that they are aware of the historical documents.

Colin, outstanding! That should set the record straight

I hope the custodians of CT-150503 will give the result of your research a serious thought and try to do everything to at least give "Ginny" her history back, and hopefully pass it back to the regiment she served in during the whole NWE campaign.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

"Ginny", or "Old Ginny", landed in France on 26 July 1944 with the 22nd Armoured Regiment (The Canadian Grenadier Guards) as part of the 4th Armoured Brigade, 4th Canadian Armoured Division, and continued to fight in North West Europe until the end of the war.

Luc Normand bought a Sherman model named “Ginny” in Montreal: “Years ago I acquired a miniature tank that came from the family of a veteran, bearing the same name “Ginny”. I never realized it was named after an actual WW2 Sherman tank.”