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  #1  
Old 20-01-23, 18:37
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Default 300w Charging Set Problems

I have this 1941 dated Charging Set, 300w, Mk 1 that I restored last year. It starts first time, every time, with the pull rope, but won’t start if I hook it up to a battery. It is also now showing that it’s only putting out around .2 or so volts when I test it with my voltmeter. I’ve only run the unit maybe an hour in total since the restoration. I need a place to start looking so that I can troubleshoot this thing. Thanks.

Edited to add a video link to my original output test.
https://youtu.be/tVPG2T4xxJs
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  #2  
Old 20-01-23, 19:47
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Your problems will be on the generator or control box side, not the engine side of things. Iíd check the little switch inside the control box that changes it from generator to starter. Off the top of my head I canít think of itís proper name.
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  #3  
Old 20-01-23, 20:12
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Thanks. Thatís a good place to start. Do you have a manual for the generator side of the house?
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  #4  
Old 20-01-23, 20:47
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Are you talking about the automatic cutout? Photo courtesy of Jacques Fortin.
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  #5  
Old 21-01-23, 00:25
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Yes. Iíd check that to start. There isnít much to go wrong in them
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Old 21-01-23, 01:11
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Default Load

Hi James

Have you tried connecting a load i.e. a car battery or a older 12V Car headlight ?

The cutout contacts might be sticky or dirty.

You can use your multimeter to check the field coils for continuity.

The rheostat ( control knob ) winding might need cleaning as well.

A aerosol can of electrical cleaner sprayed into the cutout and rheostat is a good start. No need to pull things apart to begin with.
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  #7  
Old 21-01-23, 01:57
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Hi Mike. I did try to start it with a good 12v battery. It will barely turn. Youíre the second to suggest that it might be a dirty rheostat. It has to be something simple.
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  #8  
Old 21-01-23, 03:52
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Default brushes

Quote:
Originally Posted by James D Teel II View Post
Hi Mike. I did try to start it with a good 12v battery. It will barely turn. You’re the second to suggest that it might be a dirty rheostat. It has to be something simple.
Could also be worn brushes or the commutator needs cleaning - or the brushes not seating correctly.

The OM&M made examples are more common here.

The post-war British made BSA manual is on-line http://www.howardengineerium.co.uk/I...t%20Manual.pdf
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Last edited by Mike Kelly; 21-01-23 at 07:01.
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  #9  
Old 21-01-23, 15:38
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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All good suggestions, and thanks for that manual. Itís slightly different than the one I have.
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  #10  
Old 22-01-23, 23:37
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Anyone have any idea what the resistance value of this filterette is supposed to be? All Iím getting when I try to use a battery to start the set is a spark at the start switch and the set just tries to turn.

Attached link is of me trying to start it before restoration. It wouldnít start because the magneto was bad amongst other things. As you can see, itís turning very well here.
https://youtube.com/shorts/b1L97ZSMhms?feature=share
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  #11  
Old 23-01-23, 00:39
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Hi James.

No Filtrette specifications at all in any of my Chorehorse manuals. In 1940 Canadian money, however, it was worth $28.00.

A probable long shot, but did the maker bother to stamp/print the specs anywhere on the Filtrette itself?


David
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  #12  
Old 23-01-23, 01:06
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James D Teel II View Post
Anyone have any idea what the resistance value of this filterette is supposed to be? All Iím getting when I try to use a battery to start the set is a spark at the start switch and the set just tries to turn.

Attached link is of me trying to start it before restoration. It wouldnít start because the magneto was bad amongst other things. As you can see, itís turning very well here.
https://youtube.com/shorts/b1L97ZSMhms?feature=share
The filter resistance should be very low, as the set can charge at 20 amps.

If the output voltage is really low _and_ it won't run as a motor when the start button is pressed with a charged battery connected I'm thinking the stator may have been demagnetised somehow (connecting it up backwards may cause this if you try to start it).

I don't have any manuals for this (even though I have an unissued one in its crate - someone stole the toolbox before I bought it ) so I can't help much on this one.

If there's a section on "Remagnetising the generator" it's probably worth a look.

Best regards,
Chris.
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  #13  
Old 23-01-23, 01:46
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Hi David. Thereís nothing I can find on it anywhere that shows any values. As you can see, it doesnít have much of a value; at least this one doesnít.
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  #14  
Old 23-01-23, 01:58
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Hi Chris. I have polarized it and itís still a no go. I was telling Jordan Baker earlier today. When I try to start it using the battery, I get a spark behind the start button. The motor tries to turn, but thatís it. You can see right behind the start button where the spark takes place. Thereís s bit of pitting there. Has it been doing it all along? Iíve no idea. I only noticed it when I took off the side plate.
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  #15  
Old 23-01-23, 03:20
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Default Sparking

The sparking might be caused by oxidized contacts somewhere. I guess you have cleaned up the start button contacts and the cut-out contacts. Check the field coils for the correct resistance, there might be a shorted winding.

These are the correct tools for the Chorehorse.
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  #16  
Old 23-01-23, 03:58
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Checking the coils is my next task. I might have shorted one or more when I put it back together.

Thatís a lovely NOS tool box. I have one and tools, but Iíve put it together. Iíve been searching for over a year for a proper wrench clip.
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  #17  
Old 23-01-23, 04:47
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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James.

I just discovered an oddity in my Chorehorse manuals.

In one OMC publication the Start Procedure with battery advised turning the Rheostat Output Control full Left and adjusting the choke before pressing the Start Button. The other OMC manual states the Rheostat Output Control must be turned full Right. No date codes I can see on either manual to know which instruction is newer and no ĎErrataí red flags either. Might not hurt to try the procedure both ways.

Also, I found a reference that the four coils should test close to 6 Ohms average, in series, if that helps in your trouble shooting.


David
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  #18  
Old 23-01-23, 06:00
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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That does help. Thanks. Iíll test the coils over the next couple of days and will also try adjusting the rheostat. Iíll report back once all this is done.
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  #19  
Old 23-01-23, 20:06
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Tested this morning at 6 Ohms on the dot. I’m waiting for a new ammeter to arrive on Saturday before I reassemble and try again.
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Last edited by James D Teel II; 23-01-23 at 20:50. Reason: Clarification.
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  #20  
Old 24-01-23, 13:38
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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I think at this point we've reached the "take the covers off the generator and have a poke around with a meter" stage.

Is there continuity (from the ammeter - the lead that goes into the generator) to the negative (chassis) connection? That should show the resistance of the generator rotor windings (maybe with the field windings in parallel). If it's very high I'd suspect one of the brushes is not making contact with the commutator, or else there's something (a layer of dirt) in the way.

I'll see about downloading the manual later and see what I can come up with to check.

Best regards,
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  #21  
Old 24-01-23, 13:46
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You mentioned the rheostat .....have you tried turning it from one direction to the other while cranking?

Have you tried 24v through it?

Not trying to insult, but I always start with the basics...


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  #22  
Old 24-01-23, 23:02
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Chris. The cover is off. What Iíve found is that I have only 1/2 contact on two brushes (I can see light between half of the brush and the commutator), and full contact on the other two. It must just be a coincidence that it measured 6 ohms in total. Theyíre worn enough that I canít coax the two into making full contact. Now, Iím searching for either NOS brushes, or a suitable modern substitute that measures out. Yes. I should have replaced them when I originally had it apart. Theyíre held in place by what appears to be a bent wire affair that looks like a set of staples. It seems that to take them out, I must straighten the wire, pull the brushes, replace them, and then bend the ďstaplesĒ back into place. Iíve replaced more than a few brushes and this appears to be the most complicated. Iím looking for part number 54-102. Ideally, Iíd like to find a set of four and a few spares.

Charlie. I seem to recall I have tried to start the set with the rheostat in the full off position, as is indicated in my manual, and in the full on position, but Iím not 100% certain Iíve tried it in the full on position. Also, why would I apply 24v to a 12v genset? Please advise what youíre thinking. Thanks much.
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  #23  
Old 24-01-23, 23:09
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Firstly, I'm thinking that there may be dead spots in the rheostat, and secondly - 24 v is not going to ham this, if the cranking speed jumps remarkably, it may tell you more about what's going on.


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  #24  
Old 24-01-23, 23:17
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Im tracking with what youíre thinking. Thanks for breaking it down.
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  #25  
Old 25-01-23, 01:15
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
James.

I just discovered an oddity in my Chorehorse manuals.

In one OMC publication the Start Procedure with battery advised turning the Rheostat Output Control full Left and adjusting the choke before pressing the Start Button. The other OMC manual states the Rheostat Output Control must be turned full Right. No date codes I can see on either manual to know which instruction is newer and no ĎErrataí red flags either. Might not hurt to try the procedure both ways.

Also, I found a reference that the four coils should test close to 6 Ohms average, in series, if that helps in your trouble shooting.


David
This is from a 1961 manual that I found online. It mentions turning the rheostat to high when starting from a battery.
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  #26  
Old 27-01-23, 07:27
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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So. Iím at a complete loss. Everything seems to check out okay. All the connections are clean. Iíve removed the brushes and have sanded them to where they make total contact with the commutator. I then reinstalled them. When I took the ammeter out the other day, it actually fell apart, so I ordered a replacement thatís a very good facsimile. I installed that this evening and put everything back together. It wonít start on the battery. The only thing I can think of that to me makes sense is that Iíve put the control box together wrong.

I need an exploded parts diagram or a few, good, detailed photos so I can make sure I have this thing right.
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  #27  
Old 27-01-23, 11:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James D Teel II View Post
So. Iím at a complete loss. Everything seems to check out okay. All the connections are clean. Iíve removed the brushes and have sanded them to where they make total contact with the commutator. I then reinstalled them. When I took the ammeter out the other day, it actually fell apart, so I ordered a replacement thatís a very good facsimile. I installed that this evening and put everything back together. It wonít start on the battery. The only thing I can think of that to me makes sense is that Iíve put the control box together wrong.

I need an exploded parts diagram or a few, good, detailed photos so I can make sure I have this thing right.
Seems like something is not wired up correctly or a component is U/S. If all else fails I would try to by-pass the ammeter and the cut out . I mean: try to connect your + battery lead directly to the + side of the circuit , you may have to remove the control box cover to try this.

You could have a dud rheostat. Does it check out OK with your multimeter ?
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  #28  
Old 27-01-23, 21:12
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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The rheostat is rated at 10 ohms. It tests out at 11 ohms with no breaks anywhere in the circuit.
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  #29  
Old 27-01-23, 23:14
James D Teel II James D Teel II is offline
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Okay. Itís repaired. I told you it would be something simple. Take a look at these two photos. In the second photo. See the Bakelite piece going up instead of hanging down in the first photo? That, combined with not putting the rheostat in the full on position with the battery caused it to not start.

Thank you all for your help in working me through this. That Bakelite piece caused the start button to ground out just enough against the case that it couldnít overcome the resistance, especially if the rheostat was in the wrong position.
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  #30  
Old 28-01-23, 00:41
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That was a difficult fault to track down.

I had trouble with the shielded ignition lead on my chorehorse. The in-line suppressor resistor in the lead caused a weak spark. That resistor problem took me a long time to to find.
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