Kangaroo Photos wanted

[Bill Miller]

another two ...

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Aug 1945. Probably Op. Tractable. Testing Frame capture of Can Army Newsreel.

Interesting! Capturing frames seems to work well. Keep going

H.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Good stuff, Bill! You realize, of course, that there's a significant chance we have met one of the drivers of those Priests, and certainly, one of those involved in their conversion...

These video clips were originally used in the CANADA AT WAR series, of which I have a copy. I've often wanted to make those screen captures myself for the site and for one of their reunions, but I don't possess the software or hardware for this, so keep them coming!

[John McGillivray]

Geoff,

You can download a demo copy of Cyberlink Power DVD at the link below.
You can use it for 30 days to get all the captures you want.

http://www.cyberlink.com/multi/downl...als_1_ENU.html

[Hanno Spoelstra]

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...wd_welcome.jpg

Photo by Donald I. Grant. Department of National Defence / National Archives of Canada, PA-131564.

Crowd welcoming the Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders of Canada to Leeuwarden, the Netherlands, April 16th, 1945.

Source: http://www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Temporary graves after "the battle for 't Woold".

"W. Kipp Anderson" <wkipp@alltel.net> wrote:

Hi Hanno, I was looking over some old Kangaroo postings on MLU and found one of interest in the photo you posted of the 't Woold battle aftermath. It appears that this Kangaroo is still engined with the Wright and not the Continental - hence the pepperpot exhaust. This is the only photo I've seen indicating this. At this late date would these Ram II hulls have come from the last remaining batches in England at Dagenham and if so would they have had the cast side ventilators that stood proud (not the cast- in bulges) and remained in SCC2 ?

Hi Kipp,

Interesting, I had not noticed that! I have looked up my list of production changes and determined that from CT-40028 onwards the R975-EC2 engine was replaced by the R975-C1, leading to alterations of the lower hull back plate because of changes in exhaust. This means the Ram Kangaroo in this picture was one of the first 247 built, but most likely a Ram II with hull side doors (these were discared shortly after the change in engine type).
The only picture of a Ram Kangaroo with hull side doors I have seen is on Henk Kuipers' website (see below).
Personally I'm convinced these Ram Kangaroos were painted SCC2.

Hope this helps,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
One of the pictures posted here is definitely postwar. The Ram coming over the hill, three vertical bars painted on the front, radio guy sitting in the aux turret. is part of a post war series that Bovington has and is similar to "kangaroo" excercises, Pathé newsreel 2525.26 circa 1950? BTW there are shots of other "funnies" in action in this reel (Crabs and Crocs).

Bill, could this pic be a still from that newsreel? It's a postwar shot, note the WD no. 67ZR61.

The armoured air intake is of interest also, still not sure if this was a wartime addition.

H.

[Bill Miller]

Yup, that photo was taken during the same excercise as the other postwar photos I've seen and the Pathé newsreel. The number on the side of the foreground Ram matches the one in the newsreel. Though this scene is not in the reel. (Reels actually, there are two parts to the film)

The Photo from Henk Kuipers website is of C Squadron, 49APCR. The documentation I got recently shows that we really shafted the British Army when it came to the Rams we gave them. They received pretty much exclusively all really early Rams of the 39000 and 40000 series. Another Pathé newsreel that shows C Squadron rolling into Hamburg shows several early Rams with hull side doors.

I have a list of destroyed and recovered kangaroos used by the 1CACR during Ops Blackcock and Veritable. That list includes 3 or 4 early Rams (40000 series) but also notes they were reclaimed "crocks". My list of the original 106 Rams converted for the 1CACR are all 159000 and 160000 series.

I think the engine cover shown in your photo Hanno is a Post-war modification? I haven't seen it on any of the wartime photos I have or have seen. But then again, very few of those photos clearly show that part of the tank.

Bill.

[servicepub (RIP)]

I have a document somewhere in my office where CMHQ states quite clearly that they intend to retain those Rams with WD numbers of 159402 and higher. This group is what they termed 'operational' tanks. Anything else was to be Struck Off Strength to the War Office or relegated to the CRUs for training.

[tankmodeler]

Originally posted by servicepub
The documentation I got recently shows that we really shafted the British Army when it came to the Rams we gave them.

Starts to make up for the POS softskins 5th Cdn Arm'd got in Italy, no? :-)

Paul Roberts

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra


Photo by Donald I. Grant. Department of National Defence / National Archives of Canada, PA-131564.

Crowd welcoming the Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders of Canada to Leeuwarden, the Netherlands, April 16th, 1945.

Source: http://www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca

Hi Hanno;

Actually, these are not RAM Kangaroos, but are RAM armoured gun tractors (17 pounder towers) of the 6th Anti-Tank Regiment, R.C.A.

I have come across this photo before and going back over my notes:

In the 9th Canadian Infantry Brigade's dash for Leeuwarden, the infantry rode in borrowed RAM armoured gun tractors of the 6th Anti-Tank Regiment, R.C.A. and in miscellaneous vehicles of the 14th Field Regiment, R.C.A. and 27th Armoured Regiment (The Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment), C.A.C., The first troops of the 3rd Cdn Inf Div to reach Leeuwarden, were elements of the 7th Reconnaissance Regiment (17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars), C.A.C., who entered the town on the afternoon of the 15th only to find the 1st Armoured Car Regiment (Royal Canadian Dragoons), C.A.C. already there.

At the time, "A" Sqn, 1 CACR was in support of 2nd Cdn Inf Div and "B" Sqn, 1 CACR was in support of 4th Cdn Armd Div, with both squadrons in harbour ("A" Sqn - Groningen and "B" Sqn - Neuronburg) doing maintenance and repairs on their tanks on 15 and 16 April, 1945.

Just thought I'd pass this along.

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Actually, these are not RAM Kangaroos, but are RAM armoured gun tractors (17 pounder towers) of the 6th Anti-Tank Regiment, R.C.A.

Thanks Mark!

H.

P.S. "Neuronburg" is most likely "Neurenberg".

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
The Photo from Henk Kuipers website is of C Squadron, 49APCR. The documentation I got recently shows that we really shafted the British Army when it came to the Rams we gave them. They received pretty much exclusively all really early Rams of the 39000 and 40000 series. Another Pathé newsreel that shows C Squadron rolling into Hamburg shows several early Rams with hull side doors.

Following my reply to Kipp I had only seen one picture of a Ram Kangaroo with hull side doors, Kipp Anderson sent me the following e-mail:

Hi Hanno, Many many thanks for that info. As I had never seen a Kangaroo with the side doors intact-I thought that it would have had the ventilators only. However it makes sense that if they had the earlier engine they would still have had the side doors especially if they were the last of the last. As they had proven their worth well before then, I guess that made any and all that were still left in England available.

So now that the can of worms was opened, I started to dig through my books to see if I could find another photo or two of a side door intact Kangaroo.

I had always thought something looked strange on the third Kangaroo in this first photo that is in George Forty's Road to Berlin. It has a side mounted ventilator like the second one in the row but it seems to be higher and there is a flat area where it is mounted-could this be a door?

Thankfully Forty included the IMW print number in his caption, so I went to the IWM website and punched it up-Bingo!!!!!

The original photo-
BU 2846
Ram Kangaroo personnel carriers carrying troops of the 9th Durham Light Infantry near Weske, 31 March 1945.


BU 2847
Ram Kangaroo personnel carriers carrying troops of the 9th Durham Light Infantry near Weske, 31 March 1945.


BU 2823
A Cromwell tank and Ram Kangaroo personnel carriers in Weseke, 29 March 1945.


BU 3648
Ram Kangaroo personnel carriers of 4th Armoured Brigade in Rethem, 16 April 1945.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Quite a well known pic, PA49826. Needs details added here, but I could not punch them up on Archivianet.


Source: armouredacorn.com

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
In all the photos that I have that can be clearly identified as 1CACR and clearly 49APCR (and there are many) almost all the 1CACR Rams are mid to late production "ball mount MG" with the 6 digit CT #'s, Sherman type suspension. Almost all the 49APCR Rams are the early to mid production "auxillary turret type, 5 digit CT #'s. The Rams supplied to the British all retained their CT #'s right to the end of the war. The best evidence of this can be seen in the Pathé newsreel of kangaroos in Hamburg Germany May 3rd, 1945. British Pathé ID # 2026.02

1CACR were never in Hamburg so this IS definitely 49APCR. There is a lot of great footage of columns of kangaroos, some can be seen to be very early type Rams with the side hull doors!

Kipp Anderson looked up this still from the British Pathé reel that Bill Miller mentioned in his post. It is quite dark in the original, so he has lightened it a bit.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Quite a well known pic, PA49826. Needs details added here, but I could not punch them up on Archivianet.


Source: armouredacorn.com

Hi Hanno,

The PA number listed for the photo you posted is the old original negative number . It has a new PA number and description:

REFERENCE NUMBERS:
_ ACCESSION:_ _ 1967-052
_ REPRODUCTION:_ _ PA-159252 (copy negative number);

Sherman tanks lined up along the route await the order to proceed with the infantry - 4th Canadian Armed Division chasing German paratroopers out of town
1945 / Wertle, Germany — 1 item — 2 1/4 sq. in.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Quite a well known pic, PA49826. Needs details added here, but I could not punch them up on Archivianet.


Source: armouredacorn.com

Hi Hanno/Bill;

Some more details regarding this photo. If indeed it was taken at Wertle, the Kangaroos would be those of "B" Sqn, 1 CACR and the tanks would be those of the 21 Cdn Armd Regt (GGFG).

Cheers

[Bill Miller]

Thanks for the additional info Mark. I hadn't gotten around to investigating the details yet.

My Archivanet search turned up about a half dozen or more photos in this series at Wertle, same photographer, same archives accension date. So there may be more Kangaroo photos related to this particular photo?

I really would like to get out to Ottawa and check out the Archives in person, but alas it will have to wait I just spent any future travel money on a collection of 1CACR insignia that was in Holland. Among the items are a matched pair of the elusive collar badges!

Bill.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Came across the below photo which is captioned "The advance on Schijndel near 's-Hertogenbosch, Jocks of the 2nd Bn Seaforths riding in Kangaroos driven by Canadians". If this is the case, the date would be 23 October 1944 and the Kangaroos belong to 1st Canadian Armoured Personnel Carrier Squadron.

Cheers

[Bill Miller]

Nice photo Mark,

Is this from a published source? At first glance I thought I had not seen this one before but I looked through some stuff I got from the IWM last fall and lo and behold...

This is a detail of a larger photo. I have a contact sheet of kangaroo photos from the IWM that has this photo on it and it shows more of the surrounding landscape and it appears the photographer was actually riding in the kangaroo ahead as you can see a little of the rear deck of the APC in the foreground.

The caption from the IWM is as follows:
The Advance on Hertogenbosh (sic) B11201
Troops (51st Highland Division was) committed to battle in this (the 12 Corps) atttack on Holland. The advance was in the general direction of Hertogenbosh. These pictures (11201-204) show infantry (of the 2nd Seaforth highlanders Bn.,) (152 Bde.) moving up and advancing in Kangaroos, old Ram tanks without a gun turret. Infantry travel to their objective on these kangaroos driven by Canadians on this occasion., the advance on Schijndel (sic).

Taken by Sgt. Norris. 24.10.44. RELEASED


Note of the above mentioned series of photos B 11201-204. 3 have shown up here now. B11203 has not been shown. I'll attach here, though my copy is just a very low grade photocopy. All the photos in this series bear the same caption as above.

Bill.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Is this from a published source?

Hi Bill;

This photo appears in a publication I own entitled The 51st Highland Division at War, by Roderick Grant, published in 1977. Photos B11202 and B11204 appear in my The Kangaroo in Canadian Service, B11202 from the Bovington Tank Museum (BTM 2293) and B11205 courtesy of Ed Storey, another who shares a common interest in the Kangaroos. Photo B11203 I have seen before, but I just cannot remember where or in which publication . If I come across it, I'll post it here with a reference.

These four photos are the only ones I've ever seen or come across that are of Kangaroos of the 1st Canadian Armoured Personnel Carrier Squadron and at the end of the day on which they were taken (23 Oct 44) the Squadron ceased to exist with effect from 0001hrs 24 Oct 44 with the standing up of 1st Canadian Armoured Personnel Carrier Regiment, C.A.C., into which the Squadron was absorbed, becoming "A" Squadron, 1st Canadian Armoured Personnel Carrier Regiment, C.A.C. Of course you know all this already Bill , but for those that don't.......

Cheers

[wim sikkelbein]

I found these photo's on

http://beeldbank.nationaalarchief.nl

they were taken during the liberation of hengelo holland,
the soldiers are british but I don't know if the kangaroos are canadian

[wim sikkelbein]

this one shows two curved bars over the turret ring, who knows what they are used for?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by wim sikkelbein
this one shows two curved bars over the turret ring, who knows what they are used for?

Hi Wim;

Is this the full photo?, if not, could you please post it. The bars are probably for a tarp for overhead cover from the elements.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hanno/Bill;

Is it possible that the below two photos were taken in the same location (more or less). The top photo, Hanno had posted earlier and the bottom photo is from the IWM - reference: BU 3322. If they were taken in the same location, it would be Hopsten, Germany on 8 April 1945 and judging by the markings on the Kangaroo in the top photo, they belong to "A" Sqn, 49 APCR.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Wim;

Are you sure that the photo below was taken at Hengelo?

Cheers

[Bill Miller]

Hi Wim and Mark,

First of all thanks Wim for the interesting new photos showing kangaroo personnel!! I'm going to have to inquire about get larger copies of these photos from these archives as I may be able to identify some or all of the "kangaroos" involved! Indeed there are a couple of familiar faces in the one larger group photo. The fellow standing on the engine deck on the left is familiar to me. I also notice a faint marking of the tank's name on the fender, "SISCA"? Great photos!

Mark, as for whether the two photos were taken at or near the same place, time of year, I would think it is likely. Though Hanno would be more familiar with the architecture of the area to affirm. From what I have come across so far, most of the photos of kangaroos in action come in batches taken all on or around the same day/action by the same war photographer. My opinion/guess is same locale. Definitely both 49APCR.

Wim's posted photographs could be Hengelo, though maybe not the actual "liberation". I am at work right now and don't have my list of lifts and place names travelled by the 1CACR but I do know that their 12 pg History and Col. Churchill's address pamphlet were both printed in Hengelo, so at some point, somebody from the regt. was there.

The bars on the inside (in the second of Wim's photos) are definitely tarp/bivouac support. According to my Dad, these were all improvised by the guys in the field. Some used a simple, single bar traversing the length of the turret ring. Some used two bars to made a "y" or an "x" shape. Example photo attached.
http://graceland.gentle.org/whatcha/kanga.html

Bill.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Hi Wim and Mark,

First of all thanks Wim for the interesting new photos showing kangaroo personnel!! I'm going to have to inquire about get larger copies of these photos from these archives as I may be able to identify some or all of the "kangaroos" involved! Indeed there are a couple of familiar faces in the one larger group photo. The fellow standing on the engine deck on the left is familiar to me. I also notice a faint marking of the tank's name on the fender, "SISCA"? Great photos!

Wim's posted photographs could be Hengelo, though maybe not the actual "liberation". I am at work right now and don't have my list of lifts and place names travelled by the 1CACR but I do know that their 12 pg History and Col. Churchill's address pamphlet were both printed in Hengelo, so at some point, somebody from the regt. was there.

Thanks Bill, I kinda thought that these were 1 CACR (cap badges second photo) and may not have been taken when Hengelo was liberated.

Cheers

[Bill Miller]

Hi Mark,

I went to the above posted, Dutch Archive website and did a search (zoek) for Hengelo...

There were a few more 1CACR goup photos and what certainly looks like "liberation" celebrations! There was one photo of an 1CACR officer, I think it is A/Maj. Copley, OC of B Squadron. I'll need to investigate a little more thoroughly... but later, I really should get back to work.

Always fun to discover new stuff though.

Bill.

[kevinT]

Any chance of a slightly larger scan of that photo. I just can't quite make out the name / number on the side.

Cheers
Kevin