H 42084 Smith, Edward, Rifleman

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Not dumb Mark, I guess you missed references I made to this in the past in other threads about Grandpas date of death etc.

No, I remember you mentioning it before

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
I assume that Granny received the mail ... you may notice, when shuffling through some of the back and forth correspondence between Granny and the Forces people, that she NOTED Granpa had died Sept. 17, 1945 ... I also noticed that future mail was often addressed to grandpa still, and have always wondered "why" if the Forced had been informed. Correspondence is there that was addressed to Granny as well ... yes... very confusing hey?

I must have missed the notification sent to Ottawa regarding Joseph's death. Puzzled though, why Ottawa would still address letters, etc to Joseph, up to two years after his death. The only correspondence I came across regarding (or addressed to) Mary Smith, was in regards to her share of Edward's estate, etc. Need new eyes I guess, or maybe a break.

Originally posted by Norm Cromie
Karman:
I think it truly is a fine tribute to your uncle that you have gone to such lengths to understand his story during his time in the army. For me the real tragedy that the SS bastards did not treat him as a fellow soldier. I know there is no glory or queensbury rules in the time of war. The cowardly act of executing a fellow soldier is for me beyond comprehension. The wonderful response of the MLU members to your enquiries is exceptional. Regarding the AWOL your uncle acrude I can assure you I probably well surpassed him. His behaviour sounds a hell of a lot like mine. Young anti- authorty, indifferent to a few days pay and a couple of weeks of CB sure never detered me. I personally consider it a badge of honor. I added to this punishment by going on leave improperly dressed because I hated uniformity. The photo below bears this out. As the chap on the left was properly dressed for leave and I was as you can see, not. Again, I salute you, and the MLU chaps that responded to your quest regarding this great young soldier who paid the full price.

Thank you Norm, your words mean a lot to me, that you honestly appreciate my feelings and interest in wanting to know and share what I know with people around me ... especially my family ... remember that I would not have got so far in knowledge about my Uncle and others, without you and others helping me and cheering me on in this ... and showing me how and in what ways I should appreciate what my Uncle ... and others accomplished and sacrificed ... and why. I learn "deeper and wider" every day ... especially with Geoff by my side now too

You people won't let me give up at this point either But I don't want to anyways.

I love your honesty with your stories of experiences ... i love the thoughts and feelings you share Norm. Thank you for that. You "were there" ... that means the world to me and opens my ears when you talk ... as does Art and other Vets. You were THERE. You're the best teachers we have.

I think that Rifleman Edward Smith H/42084 would have totally enjoyed your company! and you his ... I like to think so

Karmen

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
No, I remember you mentioning it before



I must have missed the notification sent to Ottawa regarding Joseph's death. Puzzled though, why Ottawa would still address letters, etc to Joseph, up to two years after his death. The only correspondence I came across regarding (or addressed to) Mary Smith, was in regards to her share of Edward's estate, etc. Need new eyes I guess, or maybe a break.

Yeah, maybe ya need a break old fart I'm sorry I didn't have the papers properly organized so you could more easily spot this stuff.

Maybe Granny didn't "officially" inform people, just jotted that little note, and the person/people reading them didn't pick up on it at that time? I don't know.

Enjoy some R&R Mark ... you deserve a little break ... and your eyes need them too

MARK,

I can't remember if I actually sent you an email asking you this or not, so here goes:

Do you have a scanner, and if so, would you be into scanning and emailing me a copy of Uncle Ed's death registration so that I can send that to the War graves site so they can update/correct his age in their site? Geoff's scanner is still down ...

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
MARK,

I can't remember if I actually sent you an email asking you this or not, so here goes:

Do you have a scanner, and if so, would you be into scanning and emailing me a copy of Uncle Ed's death registration so that I can send that to the War graves site so they can update/correct his age in their site? Geoff's scanner is still down ...

Karmen

No, you did not send me an e-mail regarding this, but you did send me a PM regarding it, so I guess I'd better get off me arse and copy and send it to you......

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
No, you did not send me an e-mail regarding this, but you did send me a PM regarding it, so I guess I'd better get off me arse and copy and send it to you......

I said yore old eyes needed a break, not yore old arse you old Grandpappy-ish fart

(Thank you much, Mark )

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
I said yore old eyes needed a break, not yore old arse you old Grandpappy-ish fart

Ya cheeky 'Ancient Fart'...after reading your above mentioned quote, me thinks I'll have to think about doing this little favor for ya.....besides, I need the time to remember exactly where it is I put the file in this very large 'Filing Cabinet/Library' I live in.....

Oh well, in the mean time, its time or a or , .... Oh and a coffee...and then maybe, I'll remember where the file is.

P.S. .....don't hold your breath.......

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Ya cheeky 'Ancient Fart'...after reading your above mentioned quote, me thinks I'll have to think about doing this little favor for ya.....besides, I need the time to remember exactly where it is I put the file in this very large 'Filing Cabinet/Library' I live in.....

Oh well, in the mean time, its time or a or , .... Oh and a coffee...and then maybe, I'll remember where the file is.

P.S. .....don't hold your breath.......

... I sorta figured you'd do it when you could etc ... theres no time limit involved and its a favor anyways. Sometime this year would be good though if you're going to do it ... now its time for my coffee and

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
... I sorta figured you'd do it when you could etc ... theres no time limit involved and its a favor anyways. Sometime this year would be good though if you're going to do it ... now its time for my coffee and

I've penciled it in for 2359hrs Saturday, 31 Dec 2005, if an earlier slot becomes available I will advise..............maybe..........

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I've penciled it in for 2359hrs Saturday, 31 Dec 2005, if an earlier slot becomes available I will advise..............maybe..........

I can wait ... I've been waiting since I got here for the scanner to be connected so I'm used to waiting. Beggars can't be choosers eh?

Mark,

What took you so long?

Thank you so very much for this ... you've just taken part in making sure Rifleman Edward Smith has his age corrected in the Canadian Virtual War Museum site ( as soon as I get a couple of more things together for them to send "all at once" if possible.

BTW ... you DID happen to notice the date Uncle Ed's death was "Registered" did you?

7 MARCH 1946 (almost 2 years after his actual death. Why did it take so long to "officially" list his "death"? Any ideas?)

And of course it has him listed as "KIA"

(I just tried to upload the scan of the registration just so everyone could see it but MLU says it was too big)

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
7 MARCH 1946 almost 2 years after his actual death. Why did it take so long to "officially" list his "death"? Any ideas?

The Registration of Death is from the Province of Manitoba - paper work flow between federal and and provincial government agencies probably

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
I just tried to upload the scan of the registration just so everyone could see it but MLU says it was too big


You mean this:

Mark,

SHOWOFF

Yet again, my friend HBM-O, MA thanks you ... (sincerely )

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Mark,

SHOWOFF

Yet again, my friend HBM-O, MA thanks you ... (sincerely )

Karmen

Your Welcome.............I think.......

Cheers

BTW Mark ... if there's anything in those records you'd like to post in here, you have my blessings. I'd love to hear the conversations started from them ... just more education for ignormamous me. Plus it fleshes out my own knowledge regards my Uncle and that whole "happening" too
I found many things interesting and know those records were viewed and date stamped many times through the course of investigations and such. I trust your judgment completely with regards anything you chose to post. When I look at them, I don't "appreciate" the "signifigance" of a lot of stuff, but you would, being the historian, and Military type that you are also knowing your "family" has some connection to RWR's and WW2. One of the things I love about you-all and this place is that what I learn through you-all teaches me the "signifigance" of what I'm learning. This is important.

K.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
BTW Mark ... if there's anything in those records you'd like to post in here, you have my blessings. I'd love to hear the conversations started from them ... just more education for ignormamous me. Plus it fleshes out my own knowledge regards my Uncle and that whole "happening" too
I found many things interesting and know those records were viewed and date stamped many times through the course of investigations and such. I trust your judgment completely with regards anything you chose to post. When I look at them, I don't "appreciate" the signifigance" but you would, beimng the historian, and Military type that you are.

K.

I was going to post the witness statements, etc, back on the orignial thread, probably within the next day or so, but the notification telegrams etc, here. Would that be Ok?

Cheers

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Your Welcome.............I think.......

Cheers

Don't "think" ... "KNOW" it is so ... thanks!

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I was going to post the witness statements, etc, back on the orignial thread, probably within the next day or so, but the notification telegrams etc, here. Would that be Ok?

Cheers

See my 2nd last post anout ya got my blessings... and I'm eager to read anything you comment or post from, or regards, the records.

(ooops... bluddy typos's ... gotta keep editing them. Must be the Irish in me (Jamesons )

[Mark W. Tonner]

The first notification received by Edward's parents, sent by the Director of Records, National Defence Headquarters, Ottawa. Sent by telegram on 25 June, 1944:

[Mark W. Tonner]

Letter (dated: 29 June, 1944) Edward's parents received from the Director of Records (NDHQ-Ottawa), it is a formal follow-up letter to the telegram of 25 Jun 44.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Letter (dated: 11 October, 1944) Edward's parents received from the Director of Records (NDHQ-Ottawa), it is a formal follow-up letter to the letter of 29 Jun 44.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
The notification received by Edward's parents, sent by the Director of Records (NDHQ-Ottawa), informing them that Edward was now being officially reported as having been Killed in Action on 8 June, 1944. Sent by telegram on 4 June, 1945:

Yes ... 4 JUNE 1945 ... they finally received the official KIA notice. 3 and a half months later Grandpa ( and great Grandpa Louis Viznaugh) died in the house fire, so Grandpa knew very little about Uncle Ed's fate. Mixed blessing as far as I'm concerned.

Mark ... thanks for posting these things. The most heartwrenching piece of paper in there, for me, was the photocopy of a handwritten letter from Grandpa Joe right after Grandpa rceived the MIA telegrams.

karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Yes ... 4 JUNE 1945 ... they finally received the official KIA notice. 3 and a half months later Grandpa ( and great Grandpa Louis Viznaugh) died in the house fire, so Grandpa knew very little about Uncle Ed's fate. Mixed blessing as far as I'm concerned.

Mark ... thanks for posting these things. The most heartwrenching piece of paper in there, for me, was the photocopy of a handwritten letter from Grandpa Joe right after Grandpa rceived the MIA telegrams.

karmen

Karmen;

See the beginning of this thread, I've corrected my post of Edward's Record of Service, I missed the 7 June, 1945 date as being the date that he was SOS X-6 List (Missing - RWR) - need new eyes me thinks.....

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Karmen;

- 8 Jun 1944 - Reported Missing - Stricken off Strength of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles - France

- 9 Jun 1944 - Taken on Strength of X-6 List (Missing - RWR)

- 7 Jun 1945 - Stricken off Strength of X-6 List (Missing - RWR) - confirmed killed 8 June, 1944 - France

Note: I have corrected this post to reflect a mistake I made when I first posted it, I missed the date of 7 June, 1945 as being the date that it was reflected on Edward's Record of Service that he was confirmed killed on 8 Jun 44 and he was SOS of the X-6 List (MIssing - RWR), with effect 7 June, 1945

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that correction/addition

Can you explain to me why he would have been SOS as MISSING 8 June 44... then TOS 9 June 44 then SOS again 7 June 45?

The terminology "Taken On/Off Strength" ... seems "odd terminology" to use for covering the span between "missing and confirmed killed"???

Just wondering.

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Hi Mark,

Thanks for that correction/addition

Can you explain to me why he would have been SOS as MISSING 8 June 44... then TOS 9 June 44 then SOS again 7 June 45?

The terminology "Taken On/Off Strength" ... seems "odd terminology" to use for covering the span between "missing and confirmed killed"???

Just wondering.

Karmen

Hi Karmen;

Don't panic, I just deleted four posts, but will re-post them shortly, there was a letter from May 45, that was mixed in with his estate papers, that shouldn't have been there. Whoever had the file before me....hmmm....

To answer your question:

- on 8 Jun 1944- he was - Reported Missing - so he was Stricken off Strength of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles - in the field (France) - because he was missing - his name was more or less moved from the actual 'effective strength listing' of the battalion, to the list carrying the 'missing' members of the battalion (at that point in time).

- on 9 Jun 1944 - he was officially - Taken on Strength of the X-6 List (Missing - RWR) - this meant that he was no longer being carried on the 'effective strength' of the battalion ( he wasn't with the battalion at this point in time), but was being carried on the list of missing.

- on 7 Jun 1945 - he was Stricken off Strength of the X-6 List (Missing - RWR) - because it had been confirmed that he had been killed 8 June, 1944 - in the field (France) - so he was no longer considered missing.

The simple meaning of 'Taken on Strength' is that the battalion gained a person, and the reverse for 'Stricken off Strength' - the battalion lost a person. The same would apply to his being 'Taken on Strength' of the X-6 List - the list gained another name and the reverse for 'Stricken off Strength' - a name was taken off the list.

Does this answer your question?

I'll re-post the deleted posts shortly. needs a

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Letter (dated: 31 May, 1945) received by Edward's parents from the Director of Records (NDHQ-Ottawa), indicating that he may be dead, based on information received since the letter of 11 Oct 44.

[Mark W. Tonner]

The notification received by Edward's parents, sent by the Director of Records (NDHQ-Ottawa), informing them that Edward was now being officially reported as having been Killed in Action on 8 June, 1944. Sent by telegram on 4 June, 1945:

[Mark W. Tonner]

Letter (dated: 7 June, 1945) Edward's parents received from the Adjutant-General (NDHQ-Ottawa), it is a formal follow-up letter to the telegram of 4 Jun 45.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Letter (dated: 14 June, 1945) sent to the Officer-in-Command, Records (Canadian Military Headquarters-London (UK)) from the Administration Officer, 1st Canadian War Crimes Investigation Unit (North-West Europe). Half way down the attached list (not posted here) appears the following entry:

H-42084 Rfmn Smith, E. RWR (along with his Plot/Row/Grave info)

[Mark W. Tonner]

Army Message (dated: 4 October, 1945) that was sent from the Records Office - NDHQ(Ottawa) to the Records Office - CMHQ(London) regarding Battle Casualties AEF (Ailled Expeditionary Force). I have only posted the top portion of the message, the bottom portion lists the 31 names mentioned, with Edward's appearing at the top of the left hand column (H42084 Rfmn Smith E).