Bodywork question

Jordan Baker · #1 31-08-06, 03:43

HI everyone.

What would be the best way to get this all smoothed out. Would bondo work or is there somthing better?

Alex van de Wetering · #2 31-08-06, 10:41

Jordan,

You could try to use the technique which is used by classics car restorers. In stead of filling oneven areas with a epoxy filler of some sort, they use Lead/Tin to flatten the surface. The Lead/Tin mix is available in bars which can be "easily" melt with a torch. You can then use it as a "normal" (but hot!) filler using tools made of wood to spread the stuff. After cooling down you can grind and send the stuff.

I still want to try the technique on my own car, so I have no experience with it yet.

regards,

Alex

Barry Churcher · #3 31-08-06, 17:23

Jordan, sometimes a previous poor patch can be nothing but a headache. I would take a die grinder and cut that piece out. Make a patch the same size and mig it in place. A little grinding and smoothing and you are in business. If you don't have access to a mig I am sure a local small body shop would weld in a patch pretty cheap.
Cheers,
Barry

Alex Blair (RIP) · #4 31-08-06, 17:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry Churcher
Jordan, sometimes a previous poor patch can be nothing but a headache. I would take a die grinder and cut that piece out. Make a patch the same size and mig it in place. A little grinding and smoothing and you are in business. If you don't have access to a mig I am sure a local small body shop would weld in a patch pretty cheap.
Cheers,
Barry

Hi Barry...Agree...100% Whoever welded that patch in must have used a flashlight...
I good patch ..a little butt welding(Butt...to butt up against,edge to edge)..a little grinding and it would look like new..
Jordan..
Don't use an overlap patch like the one there.
Cut it out....
Using a patch the same size as the hole and hold it in place with a bar magnet until you tack it...Then skip weld the patch in place..
Skip welding is short runs1/2" or less,alternating them from side to side and corner to corner...
Warm up the whole area first immediately before welding and then skip weld the patch..The skip welding keeps the metal from buckling and deforming and warping...
Once you complete your welding,grind smooth...You never will know it is there...

Jordan Baker · #5 31-08-06, 18:06

Hi guys.

Thanks again for the suggestions.

I will go this route of putting in a new patch.

Now does anyone want to come down and help me out with this patch and reskin the cab walls. I can learn the skills but I don't have any of the tools.

fc101daz · #6 31-08-06, 22:34

Just one small note if you intend to have a go at lead loading is please don't grind or machine sand lead as this is VERY bad for your health!!!!! Cut back with a fine body file blade and hand block sand with a mask.Lead dust is not good for you!!!!
Better to re-patch neatly as suggested
Daren

Ken Hughes · #7 01-09-06, 08:07

Jordan,
Barry is right cut/grind it out and like Alex said butt-weld new metal in
On the question of leading the panel you also need to make sure that you clean the newly leaded area properly otherwise oil/grease and flux WILL leach through the painted surface
I would warm the new repair with a hot air gun or simular to entice the oil or grease out of the lead(the lubricant is used to stop the lead sticking to the wooden paddle) and wash off with thinners or a good wax and grease remover
Also check out metalmeet.com an excellent site
I have 37 years in the panel trade,the first 20 on lead
listen to the advice given by the other guys,its all saftey first
Personaly i would fill the welded area with a body filler
some schools of thought here in NZ would etch prime the area first, give a lite sand so as the filler can key to the primer and fill and finish. Rage gold is an American filler and is 2 pot compatable for modern paint, we find it very good.
good luck

Jordan Baker · #8 02-09-06, 01:37

Thanks Ken and Darren

Why can't you guys move in next door to me. Woudl be much simpler to pop over in the evening and show me.

One more question

When I cut the the patch should i bevel the edge of the patch and the surrounding sheet metal so that the weld can fill it up. What I mean by this is that if looking at it as a cross section shoudl the two edges be in the shap of a "V" when they meet.

Bob Carriere · #9 02-09-06, 01:46

Any of you guys need to know absolutely anything about metal pounding, etc. etc. etc.....

....buried in Kenney email is the following site

METALMEET.COM

Check it out..... I will not be able to go to bed for the next 5 days.

Thanks Kenney

Bob C.

RHClarke · #10 02-09-06, 02:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob Carriere

Check it out..... I will not be able to go to bed for the next 5 days.
Bob C.

Bob, after you see what I put in your shed this afternoon, you will probably be thinking of pounding on something else...Now get you head out of the gutter! Split rims! Got some nice Trak Grips to mount up (ibid)

Ken Hughes · #11 02-09-06, 08:28

Jordan, are you using the same thickness metal ??
and are you mig ,tig or oxy/acet welding this panel patch?
I think that being thin sheet steel i wouldnt worry about a vee around your patch.
Its a small patch,but if you have mig or tig would be better to weld it in with them rather than gas weld,too much distortion with gas welding

rob love · #12 02-09-06, 15:55

As it is, the patch comes pretty close to the angle iron, and would be a bit of extra work trying to clean up with whatever filler method you used.
I would suggest you remove the patch and continue right under the angle iron edge. This way you will only have two sides of the patch that you will have to dress up, the other two will be normal seams and hidden from view. It could be spot MIG welded from the inside onto the angle iron edge and would look good from the outside.

I've used lead fill a couple of times in a very amaturish way, and got fantastic results from it everytime. The heavy metal on the CMPs is great for the lead filling as you have less warpage to worry about.

Jordan Baker · #13 02-09-06, 16:45

Thanks again for the tips

The sheet metal I have kicking around is pretty close. If anything it is slightly thicker.

The welder that we have is a big Lincoln Electric stick welder.

Rob good idea on cutting it right out to the edges. I will do that instead

Pedr · #14 09-09-06, 19:54

Jordan

In this case a stick welder isn't really what you want. It may suffice if you use very thin rods and turn you amperage right down.

I'd firstly prepare the new patch getting it as close as possible to the original shape that you cut from the panel. You should try and take out any of the dents and dings in that panel that you want to get rid of.

Where the panel was originally attached to the angle-iron by spot welds, if you don't want to have visible welds, one method is to drill a hole with the same outside diameter as the spot welds and weld a small rosette weld in the hole attaching your panel at the same time, then finishing by filling the hole again.

So, my advice would be to make your new piece paying attention to match the edges to the remaining original panel and take it to the nearest panel shop and have a welder there do the hard part for you. To be on the safe side prepare two replacement pieces just incase the welder burns holes in the first.

From there you can take the finished job home to work on removing the obvious welds with your grinder - but don't get too excited or push too hard as you don't want to make any new dings or cuts and scratches. If you can do the job by hand in this case it's much better. Its harder to make a stuff up if you are filing or sanding by hand than it is to bugger the whole job with your grinder.

Anyway that's my advice

But keep up the good work champ.

Pedr

Alex Blair (RIP) · #15 09-09-06, 22:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Jordan Baker
Thanks again for the tips

The sheet metal I have kicking around is pretty close. If anything it is slightly thicker.

The welder that we have is a big Lincoln Electric stick welder.

Rob good idea on cutting it right out to the edges. I will do that instead

Hi Jordan...A stick welder will take some practice...especially on thin metal...
Use the smallest diameter rod you can find...
Get a 7018 rod.. It is a smooth overlay rod and use the spot and skip method I explained earlier..on as low an amperage as you can hold the arc...
Practice on a couple of similar scrap pieces first....But better than that there are mig welders at Canadian tire or Princess Auto(Probably the best),that are now pretty cheap that don't require helium or inert gas while welding...
You are young enough to invest in one and you'll be glad you did...best tool around the shop when you need it..

Barry Churcher · #16 12-09-06, 02:40

HI everyone.

What would be the best way to get this all smoothed out. Would bondo work or is there somthing better?

Jordan, the best way to get it repaired is bring it to my garage. :idea: Bob, that works for me is real good at that sort of thing. I am having difficulty getting him interested in anything green but when I showed him this thread today at lunch he said "okay I will fix it". Maybe it was the primer. If you can get it to Whitby and leave it with us for a bit you will be able to get it repaired free.
Cheers,
Barry

Jordan Baker · #17 12-09-06, 04:38

Barry I sent you a PM

Stefan Leegwater · #18 12-09-06, 07:13

Wow Barry, what happened!!! Now grumpy old Bob will fix CMP'S?
Keep pushing him, and tell him to get rid of that crappy hot rod!!

Stefan

Barry Churcher · #19 13-09-06, 04:07

Hoi Stefan
Bobbo would liked to have replied directly but as our computer at the garage is not registered for MLU I am passing on this message on his behalf. He indicated that you are lucky that you are not coming to Canada this fall or he would punish you. Then he said " but wait! Stefano is having a baby in October" He feels that will be punishment enough with being up at all hours feeding and cleaning up shi#.

He hopes your baby puts you through the same trouble that you gave your mom and dad.
Cheers,
Barry on Bobbo's behalf.

Stefan, Bob said he wouldn't work on Jordans project unless I posted your photo so I had to do it.

Barry Churcher · #20 13-09-06, 04:13

I don't know why that came up as an attachment but I will try to figure out what went wrong.
Barry

Snowtractor · #21 13-09-06, 05:08

HI JOrdan,
you can get a cheap mig for 150 bucks at cdn tire or princess auto, I have seen thm on sale for 99, inverters make it possible. They are only a 15% duty cycle but that is enough with patience. That is 1.5 minutes of welding and 8.5 minutes of rest time. With spot welding and tacking you almost never reach the limit. Don't bevel the edges, you are already dealing with thin metal.
I used my cheapo to weld 2 5/8" peices together. I preheated with a torch and then welded small beads. Took 17 beads to weld and fill the v groove , but it is still together and it is used as as the main bracket on a snow plow. Many beads help relax stresses that build up, but if I had my stick welder up and running I would have used it and done 6 passes.
If you are not using gas, then use flux core and remember to knock the flux off after the weld cools. Gas is nice because there is no cleanup.
YOu might , also, want to use an antispatter spray on the surrounding metal and a tip dip to keep spatter from building up in the tip. Every so often just give a tap on the bench and the tip will come clean.
I have welded metal screen to a very light frame to make a bug screen for my diesel , so they work on light stuff fine. A nice littel tip, practice on scrap sheet first to get your heat and speed right. It should sound like frying bacon sizzling continuous. No stops and starts and breaks in the sound. And lastly , migs start cold and get hotter so the start of a weld might not penetrate but build up a bit, called cold lap. Again should not be a problem spot welding . It helps to start laying a bead on a scrap peice the same thickness and having someone turn up the wire feed screw up and down until you get that nice sound. You can hear the difference immediately that way instead of stopping , adjusting, and starting over.
Should get you a perfect job combines with all the other info the lads have volunteered.
Sean

Barry Churcher · #22 13-03-07, 03:51

Well Jordan, as promised Bob is fixing your blemish. He has cut out a section and is welding in a patch. There must have been $10.00 of brass rod in the old repair.

Barry Churcher · #23 13-03-07, 04:10

Lots of tiny spots on the backside with the Mig and a little hammer application. No warping.

Jordan Baker · #24 13-03-07, 04:33

Awsome and please tell him thanks so much. This was way beyond what I could have done and it means so much to me. He just got a life time of free rides in the truck or the carrier or a case of Beer, or all of them, what ever he prefers/

And also thanks to Stewart for taking the nose from Woodstock to Acton.

One super happy and evergrateful MLU'er.

Barry Churcher · #25 13-03-07, 04:38

The white is actually shiny metal, it just doesn't show well in this photo. Now that it's ground smooth a skiff of body filler will make it like new.

Barry Churcher · #26 14-03-07, 03:09

Well we have done what we said we would but maybe we should see if that really is thick body filler on the other side. Maybe if Bob just pushes a little right here. His comment was " poor adhesion in this spot".

Barry Churcher · #27 14-03-07, 03:51

Here is the backside of that panel once removed from the nose. The previous repair is obvious and the rust is creeping awful close to the headlight opening. Notice the small galvanised patch on the left. It is just stuck there with bondo.

Jordan Baker · #28 14-03-07, 04:01

The damn rust vermin really have been knawing away at the edges of the panel.

Barry Churcher · #29 14-03-07, 04:25

Jordan, here is a new panel that Bob cut out with the plasma cutter. It is the correct gauge metal and not that crappy body metal. Do we have to put the headlamp back in?

Jordan Baker · #30 14-03-07, 04:31

If you guys can that would be great. Or did you just publicly pull my leg on that one.