Tank gunnery training aid.

[sapper740]

Before I moved to Texas I had a substantial cartridge collection, one of which was a marker round for the 106mm Recoiless Rifle. It was an approximate .50 cal. Browning sized cartridge that created a flash and a puff of smoke when it hit. It was fired from a rifle that was clamped to the barrel of the 106 and had similar ballistics. It was a cheaper, and quieter method for gun crews to get some practice in. Apparently during WWII an inexpensive method to get some gunnery training was to clamp a solenoid fired weapon to the barrel or turret of a tank. here are two methods, one American, the other German.

first pic: M1928 on M4
second pic: M1928 on M4 another view
third pic: MG15 on barrel of Panzer

[Stuart Kirkham]

Surely the Thompson wasn't for the main gun as the range would have been pityful. Maybe it was a substitute for the turret mounted machine gun.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Here are three images in my library, two are Tanks while the third is artillery but the concept is the same.
The first shows a Trooper of the Fort Garry Horse adjusting the aiming device for a tank barrel - I presume a Ram 6-pdr but I leave the actual identification for those who are more expert than I. This device appears to have been purpose-designed and built.


The next photo shows two tanks each with a Bren jury-rigged to the barrel


The last shows an Enfield mounted on the top of a 6-pdr A/Tk gun in use by the Black Watch (RHC).

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Tommy K

Surely the Thompson wasn't for the main gun as the range would have been pityful. Maybe it was a substitute for the turret mounted machine gun.

No, it was definitely a training aid for new gunners to get used to hearing a bang when practicing their firing routine, although, in the case of the Thompson, it wasn't meant to parallel the main gun's ballistics. This set up wouldn't have worked in combat for several reasons: the 20 round mag would need frequent replacement by a crew member exposing themselves to enemy fire and the wire to the solenoid would have been susceptible to damage. Derek.

[Wayne McGee]

Wow...some excellent photos in this thread. Just some observations/speculations to note.
First, the .50 Cal rifle that was slaved to the 106RR fired a modified catridge/projectile that would mimic the trajectory of the full bore and was used to confirm the lay of the sight before the full bore was fired to assure a first hit, a spotting rifle.
Next, the various rifle caliber weapons shown (speculation here), were probably used with likewise modified projectiles as a cheap alternative to the use of full bore ammunition plus you could conduct a range practice with no more templating than you would require for a conventional rifle range. A modern example would be the use of 6.5mm & 7.62mm Tracer in the Carl Gustav Sub-Cal device.
Finally, the use of a pistol caliber weapon (Thompson) could be used under even more austere conditions (25yd?-50yd?) using small paper cut-out tank tgts representitive of tanks at engagement ranges. More modern examples would be the 6.5mm & 7.62mm Gallery round for the Carl G, the .22Cal insert for the FN rifle etc.
Anyways, it's wonderful to see these wartime versions. Thanks for posting

Cheers

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by servicepub

Here are three images in my library, two are Tanks while the third is artillery but the concept is the same.
The first shows a Trooper of the Fort Garry Horse adjusting the aiming device for a tank barrel

Great shots Clive, thank you for sharing them with us. I'm especially intrigued by the first picture which shows a purpose built rifle as opposed to the other pics of service weapons with mounts. I've never seen or heard of this piece of kit so you've given me something to track down more info on. Derek

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Wayne McGee

Wow...some excellent photos in this thread. Just some observations/speculations to note.
First, the .50 Cal rifle that was slaved to the 106RR fired a modified catridge/projectile that would mimic the trajectory of the full bore and was used to confirm the lay of the sight before the full bore was fired to assure a first hit, a spotting rifle.
Next, the various rifle caliber weapons shown (speculation here), were probably used with likewise modified projectiles as a cheap alternative to the use of full bore ammunition plus you could conduct a range practice with no more templating than you would require for a conventional rifle range. A modern example would be the use of 6.5mm & 7.62mm Tracer in the Carl Gustav Sub-Cal device.
Finally, the use of a pistol caliber weapon (Thompson) could be used under even more austere conditions (25yd?-50yd?) using small paper cut-out tank tgts representitive of tanks at engagement ranges. More modern examples would be the 6.5mm & 7.62mm [U]Gallery[U] round for the Carl G, the .22Cal insert for the FN rifle etc.
Anyways, it's wonderful to see these wartime versions. Thanks for posting

Cheers

Wayne ..
I think you hit the nail on the head..
As trajectory crosses two points from the bore sight(Line of sight),the .45 round would be harmonized to the close in cross point of trajectory which would then give the second,longer range for the big gun hit point..
Clear as mud...eh??

[Frank L.]

The same setup was used on Canadian Shermans/ Centurians using .22 cal bullets before the age of laser pointers. Circa mid 50s to late 60s.

The crews would literally fire at small models, both static and moving. This was to practice their engagement/ crew drills in an IMR (Indoor Miniature Range).

Similar pictures are found in The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps:
An Illustrated History

http://www.rcaca.org/En/indexLM.asp?ID=8

I haven't seen pictures of larger caliber add ons before. Interesting.

Regards

[Roddy de Normann]

Hi to all -

I remember the laser pointer well...Capt Aqualina's idea around the late 1970s, early 1980s. It was a large yellow box bolted onto the normal Chieftain main armament trainer. There was also some sort of slide show to give terrain features. This was on some sort of brushed steel laminate screen to prevent parallax through the sights.

The whole thing was about as realistic as a Mars Bar ! And about as thrilling. But then those were the days we had a fuel ban, with only a pint of diesel per vehicle per week, just enough to turn the engine. Of course all the engine seals dried out and failed when the ban was lifted - cost them twice as much repairing the vehs than the fuel costs saved.

Roddy