Kangaroo named Karla

[marco]

Hi Clive,

Full name: Marco Hogenkamp.

Most of the photo's were taken by local civilians during the liberation of Holland.
In the past, quite some books were published locally, dealing with the liberation of that particular city/area, using these photo's.
Although the quality is not very good (the film available to civilians in those days was a celluloid based material which detoriated quickly) they are often quite unique.

Best regards,

Marco

[kevinT]

Hi Marco,

Great photos.
One thing the WD serial CT151773? Is that not a number allocated to Shermans? It certainly looks like that number to me too though.
Anyone any thoughts as to number?

Cheers
Kevin

[marco]

Hi Kevin,

I had a look again and I'm sure you are right.
It is CT-159773.
The "circle" from the "9" is so small that it looks like a "1".
The other one probably should be CT-159897.

Thanks,

Marco

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by marco
It is CT-159773. (...) The other one probably should be CT-159897.

Thanks Marco! Those tie in nicely in the CT159402 to CT160193 range.

As per ramtank.ca:
- CT159773; Sept 1944, shown as converted to Armoured Ammunition Carrier; Oct 1944, Ammunition Carrier, held by 21st Army Group; July 1945, shown as held by A Sqdn, 10CAR (FGH)


- CT159897; Sept 1944, shown as converted to Armoured Ammunition Carrier; Oct 1944, Ammunition Carrier, held by 21st Army Group; July 1945, shown as an Ammunition Carrier and held by 10CAR (FGH)


Regards,
Hanno

[kevinT]

Hello Marco,

Thanks for the confirmation.
I think that they belong to Fort Garry Horse but those better informed than me will be able to confirm.

Cheers
Kevin

[kevinT]

Told you!

[marco]

Hi Hanno,

Yes, both belong to the Fort Garry Horse.

Marco

[Roddy de Normann]

Hi to all...

I am hoping that through the good advice of Snowtractor I might have cracked the pic issue.

Ref KARLA, have also noted PEARL, EILEEN & PATTY - thanks to Pathe Film 2101.05, prob taken Jan/Feb 45.

Some stills include:

[Roddy de Normann]

Here is PATTY...with a serial in the CT-159xxx range

[Roddy de Normann]

...and EILEEN...

[Roddy de Normann]

But prob more important for some, a shaky still of the Squadron ARV...

Thanks Sean for the advice !

Roddy

[marco]

And Phyllis, most likely belonging to FGH.
Destroyed on the "Coehoornsingel" in the city of Groningen.
Date around April 15th 1945.

Marco

[Bill Miller]

Here is another shot of Phyllis from the rear showing the "Kangaroo" AoS #157.
Definitely 1CACR.
From the WD. April 14:
...a force of six KANGAROOS commanded by Lt. matthews and manned by volunteers which made a sortie into GRONINGEN to sieze a bridge... Amongst the volunteers were maj. Wilson OC "A" Squadron, Sgt. Bois, Sgt Lloyd and Tpr Brant. Sgt. Lloyd and Tpr Brant were slightly wounded and Sgt. Bois and his driver had their KANGAROO brewed up by bazooka fire and were cut off inside the city. They managed to work their way back through enemy lines and arrived back safely during the night.


A question for Roddy. What clues in your last post lead you to think the Ram pictured is an ARV? and not just a really cluttered up Kangaroo? The 1CACR (123 LAD) WD's state their two ARV's were Shermans.

Bill.

[Roddy de Normann]

Bill -

Ref ARV. Reason behind the thought is that no infantryman will want all that clutter if he is going to debuss quickly. Too much to snag something on.

Also, if the veh is expected to take the inf right onto the objective, then the last thing they want is for all their bins to be shot up on the way in !

Hope this helps...

Roddy

[Bill Miller]

Hi ROddy,

Agreed, when carrying Infantry, no kangaroo would have been that cluttered. The hull deck would be stripped right down, including the pioneer tools on the inside Sponsons. However, looking at this entire film clip (there is a another tank crew having a meal) I think these are definitely Kangaroos at rest or at least in a non-operational role...

Keep in mind that the Kangaroos actually carried Infantry a small fraction of the time. The rest of the time they were kept occupied as Ammo/Supply carriers, Armd ambulances etc... And since they were constantly on the move at or near the front, far away from their rear echelon they scrounged. Boy did they scrounge. The tank itself had to become their home away from home so to speak.

Jason Spurrier's excellent Kangaroo photos show an informal luch stop (fresh fried chicken was on the menu!) They show what roving garbage heaps the Kangaroos "usually" were...

Also included another Pathé film frame showing a Kangaroo loaded with ration boxes.

Regarding the picture you posted. At first glance, I thought they had a fascine on the rear deck, however on a closer look I think it is a bundle of stretchers (note the handles)... medical supplies? or even possibly the M.O.'s tank?

Bill.

[marco]

And here is Sisca.

Source:

http://beeldbank.nationaalarchief.nl

[Roddy de Normann]

Bill -

Couple of further Pathe cuts ref laden 'Roos. Both come from Pathe film 2026.02 of Brit troops entering Hamburg, early May '45.

I fully take your point ref the travelling caravan appearance of some of the Kangaroos fm 49 APC Regt. Having said that, there are a number of questions that do fall out of the same pics...

First, did all carriers belong to 49 APC ? Presumably ammo carriers and the towers belonged to the various units they were assigned to, both within 79th Armd Div and outside.

Second, I presume that those vehicles that were solely used for troop lifts would have remained uncluttered as they only had a permanent crew of about three. I accept that some kit would be carried on the rear as troops would have exited over the front and sides.

Third, I presume that there were a number of vehicles in each sqn that would have been used in a support role (ambulance, command etc) and thus could be allowed to become cluttered. Do you know the actual sqn orbats that could poss illustrate whic/how many vehicles of this sort there were ?

Ref the two pics, interested to see that each veh had its own sqn serial - R8, S9 ect.

Also interesting to note that one of the vehs has had a series of brackets welded onto the hull rear to take kit...

All comments eagerly awaited !

Roddy

[Roddy de Normann]

Pic 2 fm Hamburg

Roddy

[Bill Miller]

Hi Roddy,

I will attempt to answer your questions as completely as I can. However, since so little was documented about the Kangaroos during the war and the immediate post-war that some points of interest are little more than speculation.

First of all there are a few historic overviews that can give you more history than i can in this space. Please refer to Geoff's website: http://www.1cacr.org

There are also a couple of books that are well detailed:
Forum member Mark Tonner has written " The Kangaroo in Canadian Service", part of Clive Law's "Weapons of War" series.

1st Cdn Armd Carrier Regt. veteran, Ken Ramsden wrote a history of his regiment in 1997 (now out of print and difficult to find), "The Canadian Kangaroos in World War II".

To answer your questions. No, the "Kangaroo" carriers did not all belong to the 49APCR. The British 49th (RTR) APCR and the 1st Cdn Armd Carrier Regiment were specifically "Armoured Personnel Carriers". Armoured Ammunition Carriers (Wallabies) were created for separate armoured regiments as echelon vehicles to carry and supply ammunition. Armoured Gun Towers belonged to certain, designated artillery field regiments and as the name implies, towed guns. There were also a limited number of Wasp Flame Throwers euipped Rams called "Badgers".

The Canadian Ram chassis was deemed suitable for all roles and once turretless, all look pretty much the same at first glance. However, each role demanded slightly different modifications and requiremnts for it's proper use in the field. (Ram based Gun Towers were discontinued in December of 1944 and those still in stock were converted to the role of APC.) In the APC role, the tank specifically retained their .30 Browning in the bow (or aux. turret in earlier Rams) and when travelling to the front had an additional .30 mounted on the turret ring. (sometimes a second MG was mounted on the turret ring and there is documentation to support the use of .50 in some instances)

While these individual regiments and branches of the Army had specific roles, there are instances of Ammo Carriers and Gun Towers being pressed into service as APC's and vice versa. (as the photos in this thread have shown). The Kangaroos were officially in a support role to infantry brigades/divisions and when not carrying men were asked/required to preform other tasks (make themselves useful) Kangaroos were crewed by two men, a driver and co-driver (gunner/op) some tanks in the troop would have a third or fourth member riding along (replacement drivers and officers/observers).

Officially the WE for an Armd Carrier Regt. as established by the 1CACR show the Rams as strictly an APC. The Regt. had other vehicles, (scout cars and half tracks and Armd 15cwts) for other roles. The MO had a half track. However in reading the War Diary and in my talks with veterans of the regiment what happened on paper vs. reality were very, very different.

Regarding the clutter. Most photos you see of Kangaroos, unless taken by an official war photographer up at the front, are veteran photo taken away from the frontlines. In these rear areas the tank has become more travelling caravan than combat ready vehicle. When called into "action" all that mess would be removed and stored at the rear area, the extra brownings come out and the infantry go inside the cramped hull, not draped on the outside/rear deck as so many "non-combat" photos show. See attached photo for a kangaroo moving into action. There is still a few bits of stuff on the back.

Regarding welded brackets/modifications... there was no standard configuration for stowage and hull modifications. The 1CACR war diaries mention that the individual crews and troops made all sorts of wonderful modifications to their individual tanks. No two kangaroos look alike. My observation is that the British crews kept their tanks neater and less cluttered, they also cut their fenders back, some used hand holds or rungs on the hull (see the photo of "Armadillo") and ladder like rungs across the front of the transmission. Most photos of 1CACR tanks show the fenders falling off! I have the maintenance log book for a kangaroo and it shows both fenders being replaced in a two month period. Mines and mud really took its toll on the suspension and I suppose too, the fenders.

Markings... again no uniformity. Some of the Rams retained residual markings from their previous roles before being converted. I have yet to see a photo of a kangaroo properly painted as proscribed in the Regt/Divisional regulations. The markings on the British kangaroos are a mystery to me (R9, S8, etc...) I haven't seen anything in the 49APCR WE or WD to describe or explain the meaning of these markings.

Hope that clears up a few things?!

Bill.