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  #91  
Old 14-12-07, 00:47
Colin Foulkes Colin Foulkes is offline
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Default Bob Cameron 7th Nov

Quote by Bob Cameron. 7th Nov

This might upset somebody --- However!
I attended an event at Menangle NSW where I and six others witnessed the following :
Colin and Carol Foulkes arrived, Colin came into our tent to chat with us and without any prompting made some slanderous and derogatory remarks about about a fellow executive committee member of KVE. Shocked at this behaviour I then left the tent knowing that these comments had been recorded.

Answer from Col.

Unfortunately there are several inconsistencies in Bob's posting.

(1) Carol was not present at the time this is supposed to have happened.
(2) I was never in Bob's tent. The only 'tent' that I entered was the annexe of a camper trailer owned by two other AAVA members.
(3) Nobody present in that annexe that I have spoken to since has the vaguest idea what Bob is talking about.

It would appear that Bob must have totally misunderstood what was possibly said, like, g'day fellas how would you be.
Outside of that I am totally mystified by the purpose of this posting.

Col Foulkes
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  #92  
Old 14-12-07, 02:23
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default Re: Colin Foulkes

Having given this a bit of thought, I'd advise you to let this one go, Colin.

Quite aside from the fact that you've seen this remark of Bob's dozens of times in the month since it was posted without bothering to answer it, "g'day fellas how would you be" doesn't sound terribly like "some slanderous and derogatory remarks about a fellow executive committee member", does it?

Walk away, Colin. You've made your statement. There's nothing to be gained by arguing semantics at this point.

Geoff
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  #93  
Old 14-12-07, 02:29
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I'm not taking sides in this, but Geoff, what makes you think that Colin had ever seen this post earlier than when he made his reply? not everybody reads every thread.

As for anything further, no side gains from these he said / she said type arguments, but it's usually best to take the comments on third party witnesses as to what actually happened.
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  #94  
Old 14-12-07, 02:44
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by phoenix
I'm not taking sides in this, but Geoff, what makes you think that Colin had ever seen this post earlier than when he made his reply? not everybody reads every thread.

As for anything further, no side gains from these he said / she said type arguments, but it's usually best to take the comments on third party witnesses as to what actually happened.
Richard,

Part of my job as Administrator here is watching traffic patterns of members & guests alike to see what's being looked at and what's being ignored, especially in threads which have the potential to become 'touchy', as this one has since last August. I know for a fact that Colin has been in this thread many times in the last month.

As far as 'witnesses' are concerned, fine, let's have them. The trouble is here, it's all at arm's length, and MLU isn't a court of law, nor is prepared to act like one.
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  #95  
Old 14-12-07, 03:04
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Default

and I wasn't suggesting that we act like a court of law, or any kind of law for that matter, merely raising the point that the person in question may not have viewed the thread.

I know that on the forum on which I am an administrator the software does keep track of visits, but not which threads people visit. It seems that this forum doesn't operate that way, I stand corrected.
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  #96  
Old 14-12-07, 03:13
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by phoenix
and I wasn't suggesting that we act like a court of law, or any kind of law for that matter, merely raising the point that the person in question may not have viewed the thread.

I know that on the forum on which I am an administrator the software does keep track of visits, but not which threads people visit. It seems that this forum doesn't operate that way, I stand corrected.
No worries Richard!

The whole issue is wretched business anyway, and while I have felt honour-bound to let both 'sides' have their say, methinks this has pretty much wrapped itself up at this point.

Geoff
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  #97  
Old 14-12-07, 04:58
Colin Foulkes Colin Foulkes is offline
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Thank you Geoff,
This is finished as far as I am concerned.
Col.
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  #98  
Old 14-12-07, 05:47
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Default Corowa 08

For reasons that will become apparent to many shortly, I am hereby withdrawing any and all assistance I have previously offered to KVE Inc in any of the organisational aspects of next years event, whether it be with the AFVs or soft skinned vehicles.

This includes the logistics of the traffic monitoring, TMP, Convoy procedures, airfield management and so forth. I will from here be leaving all the safety aspects up to the committee to organise as well, as it has been made clear that my assistance is no longer required.

I bear no grudge to the old committee who have reinstated themselves and I wish all the best for next year and hope all goes well.

Last edited by Ian Pullen; 14-12-07 at 06:01.
  #99  
Old 14-12-07, 06:05
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How does a committee resign and then reinstate itself? (I'm not up on how comittees and such work).
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  #100  
Old 14-12-07, 06:09
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Default Corowa 08

Sorry, it was probably a case of poor wording. Their resignation period had not elapsed officially so therefore they were technically still the committee.
  #101  
Old 14-12-07, 09:20
Bob Cameron Bob Cameron is offline
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Default My Post

Please give me right of reply.

I, being a retired Warrant Officer of the Australian Regular Army holding not only a Distinguished Conduct Medal but also two American Bronze Stars, one with a "V" for Valour Device and one for Meritorious Service, plus two Purple Hearts have Never previously had my integrity questioned.

I will not tolerate this happening by any person, including Colin Foulkes.

He obviously has not read and understood my previous posting with necessary applied intelligence or is just thick.

You will hear no more from me about this, as I like a lot of others are totally sick of this ego driven childish rubbish.

Desmond (Bob) Cameron DCM
Treasurer AAVA and member of KVE
  #102  
Old 14-12-07, 10:10
matilda IIA matilda IIA is offline
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Thats bad news Ian, I was organising some transport for the old girl but Now we will not be attending !. ever thought of having a meet up my way ?

Kind regards
Matt
  #103  
Old 14-12-07, 12:36
alexmacca30 alexmacca30 is offline
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For similar reasons to Ian, I have withdrawn any support to KVE Inc. including any TMP, any work I have done towards the event thus far and will be leaving the entire event in the hands of the current committee.

I will not be running the Land Rover in the front of this years parade. Whether I even attend the parade, I am yet to decide.

I hope that all goes well with the 2008 event.

Alex
  #104  
Old 15-12-07, 04:48
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Default Corowa 08

Sorry Matt. A couple of others have said the same thing. As for a meeting up in your direction, haven't thought about it but it may not be a bad idea.
  #105  
Old 15-12-07, 05:47
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Default An Open Letter to KVE

Ladies & Gentlemen,

As most of you will know, for some five months now I have been rather closely involved with Corowa through my professional association with Jan Thompson and her wonderful initiative, Corowa 30, for which I have been privileged to call myself 'the webmaster'. This has, over this time, slowly opened up a whole different world to me, one with both positive and negative elements, the latter of which unfortunately no longer can be ignored.

I shan't go into detail about some of the more uncomfortable aspects which I have come to know except to say this: it is apparent that this has gone far enough. With both Ian Pullen and Alex McPherson now having officially pulled their support from KVE Inc as the controlling body for the Corowa operation, I feel it my duty and obligation to do the same. I sent the following letter to John Hedges three days ago, without answer or acknowledgment since. It speaks for itself.

Corowa as a show has been going on every year since 1980. That body now charged with its organisation, KVE Inc, had been run in an increasingly erratic manner, until Ian Pullen stepped in to straighten things out. Apparently now this is not going to be the case, and I feel honour-bound to publish the following (it contains references to another letter written Mr. Hedges by Jan Thompson, on which I and a number of others were copied):
Quote:
John,

[Having reviewed Jan's letter as quoted below,] I feel it's well past time for me to comment on the subject-at-hand, and as a paid applicant-member of KVE Inc I feel I have that right, if not obligation.

Up to now I have refrained from becoming involved in this whole distasteful episode since it began boiling to the surface a few months ago, simply because while I knew many of those involved, I had not previously been party to some of the goings on. This has slowly changed over time, and I have become increasingly uncomfortable with much of what I have seen.

Beginning in August it slowly became apparent that there was something afoot within KVE, when there began what appeared to be a disorganised litany of contradictory dictates issuing forth from the office of President, punctuated by increasingly disdainful remarks made against those asking questions of those dictates. My antennae perked up even further when these comments escalated to outright public criticism of KVE’s Secretary – this was clearly unwarranted and suggested to all and sundry there was something else involved.

If we jump ahead to Bob Cameron’s statement regarding what could only be construed as slanderous remarks made in public from other members of the Committee, a very distasteful picture emerged rather abruptly. I will also state at this point that I had heard similar from other sources as well, so this was no surprise to me; it was apparent that KVE was in serious trouble.

What emphasised this feeling of increasing discomfort was the image KVE was projecting to the rank-and-file from a communications standpoint; all potential event participants saw seemed to be this repetitive negativity when what they (quite rightly) expected was leadership, direction and a positive outlook for what promised to be the most ambitious Corowa event to-date. As you know, in addition to my full-time job with Canada’s premier telecommunications company, I have also been involved with web communications for almost ten years; I feel I can state with some authority that ‘communications’ from KVE were notable only by their almost complete absence. I put it to you, sir, that this is no way to run what purports to a communications company.

Having said that, through this increasingly complex chain of events I was buoyed and gratified to see some semblance of purpose and organisation emerging in the person of Ian Pullen. As soldiers, Ian and I understand each other instinctively, and the manner in which he addressed not only the confusion over the dual location of the coming event, but the complexity of vehicle movement throughout the show appealed to my sense of order; I began to feel that finally, KVE was regaining it’s sense of direction. When it became apparent that Mr. Pullen was going to become involved with the operational aspects of KVE, I finally felt confident enough to submit my application for membership therein through established channels.

What followed thereafter of course, were the resignations first from Mr. Foulkes, then from you, Mrs. Foulkes and Mr. Persons. Evidently, whatever had been going on within KVE had reached a crisis point, and this had been judged the most appropriate action to be taken. So be it. With the heir-apparent being Ian Pullen working in conjunction with some other fine, respectable individuals in the military vehicle community, some of whom I am privileged to call friends, I felt that KVE was once more and finally on the right track.

[And then came Jan’s eye-opening letter as below.]

John, I fail to understand the necessity for all of this. It seems that while the resigning members of the Committee should be facilitating the transition over to the new Interim Committee pending its confirmation, you are in fact trying to manipulate established protocols to retain some sort of stranglehold over KVE. You have eleven days left in office; Ian is now projecting a very positive outlook for KVE and Corowa for 2008 which is being well-received by participants and interested parties alike – why are you trying to meddle, and illegally at that, as he and the others are attempting to reestablish the credibility of the Association so that KVE might continue with its mission of giving the people a good show for 2008?

I’m gravely disappointed to realise that you and the outgoing members of the old committee are obviously intent on pursuing whatever insidious hidden agenda was extant months ago, at the expense of KVE and even possibly Corowa itself. I state for the record that I now have no confidence in any organisation which has you or the other outgoing members in any position of responsibility or authority, and furthermore will not hesitate to make my opinion known to any whom this might affect.

I’m sorry it has come to this John, but unfortunately you and your friends have brought this on yourselves. For the sake of all concerned I would urge you to withdraw yourselves forthwith from all further interaction with the Association.

Regards,

Geoffrey A. Winnington-Ball
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  #106  
Old 15-12-07, 12:07
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Default No Corowa 2008 For Us

Hi all
Well Ada, myself and Phoenix have decided not to attend Corowa 2008. We will not be involved with a cesspit of territorial pissing in corners. It's a shame it just wasn't left up to Keith Adam. Thanks KVE for wrecking our annual holiday plans to attend Corowa. Hopefully by 2009 it may have sorted itself out.
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  #107  
Old 15-12-07, 12:39
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Default Corowa 2008

Well it's a shame that to hear familliar names withdrawing from an Annual event.

I for one will still be attending this great event, with my jeep. I know it's not a tracked vehicle, and I don't care, as I am a Military Vehicle enthusiast, and this is the best thing this country has in promoting our hobby.
I will see all other entrants at Corowa, and leave all the other political persons to chat amongst themselves, whilst I am attending a great Military Vehicle event as I have done for 2/3 of my life.

Bruce McCann

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  #108  
Old 15-12-07, 13:10
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Dead right Bruce, There is no reason anyone MUST have any association with KVE at all when they attend Corowa. You attend under your own club banner and there is nothing that states "you must do as the KVE orders or directs you to do". You are attending as individuals of your own clubs.

Remember also that the $10.00 donation at registration is just that, a DONATION which I for one will not be paying. Who knows where that $10.00 will go with the current KVE committee. There is no reason not to attend because of KVE. I will be attending Corowa as a member of the VMVC.

Alex
  #109  
Old 15-12-07, 16:05
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As a member of KVE, I was planning to attend Corowa in 2008 and would have assisted with the organising, as I would not have been taking a vehicle. I know that Jan Thompson has been attending Corowa from the first event in 1980 and has been involved with the organising since the mid-1990's. My first visit to Corowa was in 1996, after taking part in Back To The Track in 1995. Jan is known worldwide as the consistent contact for the Corowa event and myself and others hope that she will remain as Secretary of KVE, in order for the event to continue successfully. As there are now signs of main theme vehicles withdrawing, because of all this negativity, I am also having second thoughts in attending, with a cost of around $5000 to consider, for travel, accommodation and loss of earnings. I hear that some of the people who were planning on attending would have been spending a similar sum on vehicle transport. Those that have resigned appear to want to retain control. This will lead to continued disruption in KVE, which has already come to the fore with Ian and Alex withdrawing organisational support. Now is the time for those that have resigned to pack up and shut up, and leave it to new members with more dedication to take on the task.
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  #110  
Old 15-12-07, 20:30
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As a lot of you know I have not attended this event and probably never will for various reasons but I am kept up to date by other kind folk sending me photos so I can enjoy the vehicles as well.

I find it really hard to fathom why any organisation has a policy of allowing a certain period of time to pass before a resignation takes effect! To me it seems that these people who want to control the event resigned when they could not get their way and when it did not collapse as they thought because other more capable people took over the running they used this time delay to take back the resignations and take over again.

To those that resigned I suggest you stand aside and let your resignations stand for the good of the event and stop being so selfish to those who want to do it for the events sake and not personal satisfaction.

To those like Jan I can only say that I admire your grit and determination not to let these selfish people get away with it.

To the members of KVA I suggest you get togeather at your next AGM and change the rules of resignation to read resignations take effect immeadiately the secretary receives it or similar to stop a rediculous situation like this from occuring again.

I hope for all concerned that this is sorted out and the event does not suffer unduely because of it.
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  #111  
Old 16-12-07, 07:43
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I have attended this event since 1980 and have seen the progress built up over the years. This event has been run very smoothly up until 2007. After reading through all of the above replies I disapprove of the ego's and politics involved. Jan has spent more hours working on keeping this event successful since she became involved in the running of the event than anyone on the current committee. She is the person people turn to for advice and information. If she resigned people will still approach her for advice and information. I don't want to see this happen as the event will crumble!

David Brown
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  #112  
Old 16-12-07, 09:43
Scrivo18 Scrivo18 is offline
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Default Corowa

As someone that was extremely excited about the tracked vehicle theme for Corowa 2008, having every intension of taking my Bren carrier, Halftrack and my M3 Stuart light tank, the thought of seeing more than one Stuart rumbling up the main street of Corowa and then with the chance of driving around at the airport WOW what more can you say!
I was a little amazed when the cracks started to show within the KVE landscape. Ian Pullen contacted me regarding my intensions of what vehicles I planned on taking, and mentioned that a meeting would take place in October about the event. As an owner and operator of these vehicles it was thought that my input could be valuable. Thus said I attended this meeting and at the end of the day it seemed that a couple of handshakes and an apology was all that was needed and we were back on track. However latter in the day decisions made changed dramatically. A meeting again at Corowa was mentioned/planed and my intention was to go to that as well. I had offered to give what ever assistance that I could. As we know now that meeting was cancelled by some of the committee two days prior and pretty well everything that was proposed would seem to have fallen over.
Without the participation of Ian and Alex in the running and organisation of the heavy/tracked vehicles I am really anxious about the safety of people involved, insurance and our relationship with the community of Corowa. What was going to be a wonderful and exciting event with world wide interest and participation now seems to be a childish miss adventure, and at this point while still having every intension of going to Corowa my tracked vehicle’s will be staying at home. The expense of transport and organisation required to have taken these machines would now be unreasonable and unenjoyable.
The thought of sharing my small part of the History of these vehicle’s with other collectors and interested spectators is what this is all about, not the ego's that seem to have taken over.
I have been indirectly involved with Corowa for many years as many of the South Australian participants have since the very first event dropped into my Families business to say hello and find some elusive MV parts. While I have only been attending since the Late 90's it is the one weekend of the year that I catch up with a number of very close friends and people who's company I enjoy greatly. One of whom it has always been a pleasure to see and talk to is Jan Thompson, the Face and heart of the event as far as I and many participants are concerned. In fact the other members of the committee were unknown to me until the meeting at Corowa. It is very distressing to see that a number of people are inclined to not attend at all.

This event would have been and still could be a world class event if the likes of Ian, Alex and Jan are allowed to run and organise the event.

Tim Scriven
  #113  
Old 18-12-07, 03:02
Vets Dottir 2nd
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Hi Folks,

I guess I'm sort of taking a public stand here, by posting in this thread, but its not a stand on siding with inner KVE conflicts and people at the center of its storms, I stand on the side, always, of MLU members and community, and how we enjoy and happen in MLU, how we treat each other, as members, in MLU, and the usual respect and consideration we treat each other with.

I mean absolutely no judgement or disrespect to you Geoff, Jan, John, or anyone else in here who has posted or what side they may feel a loyalty to or side on, or what they have said. I'm not a KVE member. I am an MLU member, and its as a simple MLU member Carman and from my heart, NOT as admin or anything else like that, just me Carman/Ma Yappy......... that I'm speaking from and out of concern for MLU experiences and moods ... I would like to see this conversation removed from MLU. Let KVE inner struggles be sorted out within its private inner membership and let us know when sorted out so people can know how and if they can proceed with their plans to attend events and such.

I think this conversation has done two detrimental things:

1) It's looking like this public talks are hindering more objective and quicker resolution between all parties concerned as sides divide and that makes objective and speedy resolution impossible for those at the center of the storm to resolve things? (This conversation is hurting KVE and members, and indirectly all other interested parties )

2) It's damaging MLU's natural and normal spirit and comeraderie.

Again, I would like to see this conversation entirely removed from MLU, simply for the good that will come in MLU and KVE to do so. (this conversation is hurting MLU memberhip and relationships, and community mood )

I think that removing this thread conversation will help both KVE AND MLU relationships and problems get back on track ... and I'm all for THAT .... plus for Peace On Earth and Good Will T'ward Men and Women as what is the usual tone of MLUers towards each other. We HELP each other in here usually and thats an awesome thing ... can we help KVE and MLU get back on track by removing this thread?

I wish KVE the very best.

With utmost respect and consideration to all, and with apologies to anyone who may feel I have been out of line to speak in here about any of this.

Carman
  #114  
Old 18-12-07, 05:37
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Default Thanks Carman

I agree with you 100% well said.
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  #115  
Old 18-12-07, 06:33
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Quite right Carmen!

Personal attacks and bickering don't get us (or KVE) anywhere.
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  #116  
Old 18-12-07, 12:50
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Default I Disagree

Sorry Kartmann
I have to disagree with you. People attending Corowa expend large amounts of money and resources to get their vehicles there. In our case it's a ten hour drive with fuel quite expensive. Next year would have been worse as we would of had to truck Phoenix over, and remember I already bought another truck for that purpose. If none of this thread had been published we would have been in the dark about all the political machinations surrounding Corowa 2008. I am grateful to Ian Pullen for keeping us informed. He is the only one who has whilst the KVE Executive have remained in the cone of silence. This is our major yearly event and next year would have been exciting given the armoured and unique vehicles that would have attended. MLU is also the perfect forum for this discussion otherwise Ian would have been on the telephone 24/7. As it was he still spent an enormous time on the phone.

This thread is good, informed and healthy discussion and if it is controversial so be it. This is what Freedom Of Speech means.

Bob
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  #117  
Old 18-12-07, 13:23
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Yea's and nay's ... Hi Bob

I understand that you disagree with me about the part to remove this thread. So do many others.

Kartmann
  #118  
Old 18-12-07, 23:38
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Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default Just a note...

If there's any fault in continuing to allow this thread to live, it is mine and mine alone.

Back in August, when the topic matter began to turn nasty, I did debate just chucking the whole lot, but in the end elected to preserve it, albeit keeping a close eye on it throughout.

The reason for this is twofold; first, as Bob suggests, there has been a total dearth of information coming from KVE itself, and thus no one has been up on the status of this coming year's event. Obviously, we now know why.

The second reason for keeping it is tied to the underlying troubles within KVE, which is to say that one of their number has been unfairly targeted for reasons I have found unfathomable. Simply speaking, I was not about to permit the unchallenged persecution of this person while I was in a position to do something about it, even if just by providing an outlet by which these accusations could be addressed in public.

This has been accomplished.

The fact that KVE is indeed in trouble right now is due to both conditions, in my opinion. The fact that solutions have been offered and plainly rejected just triumphs the fact that at least those who might have gone to great lengths and expense to bring down some unique piece of equipment in March have now the option as to whether to do so or cease & desist. It is the very least we can do for these dedicated collectors!

Thus, providing this thread stays polite, it will remain here unedited, at least until some other order of Corowa-related business develops. To those who find it awkward, I can only say 'bear with us here'; to those who are happy to at least have this as a news outlet, I have to say, 'thanks for your understanding'.

Let us hope that soon we might see the business of Corowa continue with no more enmity - the show should be a reflection of those who participate, not those who 'organise'.

Geoff
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  #119  
Old 19-12-07, 00:21
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Bob Moseley (RIP) Bob Moseley (RIP) is offline
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Hi Jif
Thank you for keeping this thread alive. It has been vital for Ada & I in determining whether or not to attend Corowa 2008. Our geography precludes us from attending meetings and are therefore reliant on the reports mainly from Ian Pullen. I would hate to see his telephone account. The postings also reflect the nature of the various combatants and through those we can at least judge them by their words.
Bob
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  #120  
Old 19-12-07, 00:41
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Default Re: Just a note...

Quote:
Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball


Thus, providing this thread stays polite, it will remain here unedited, at least until some other order of Corowa-related business develops. To those who find it awkward, I can only say 'bear with us here'; to those who are happy to at least have this as a news outlet, I have to say, 'thanks for your understanding'.

Let us hope that soon we might see the business of Corowa continue with no more enmity - the show should be a reflection of those who participate, not those who 'organise'.

Geoff
Thanks for posting Geoff. I'm glad you did

For me and my own reactions to this thread, it hasn't been about the WHAT of this thread, but of some of the HOWS and those negative effects all round, is all, and it's really only those aspects I wish were gone/not done in here (the things said that look/sound so vicous and malicious to each other ) I understand that online communications leave a lot to be desired in real understanding of the people and issues, and lotsa room for minunderstandings and reactions and such, for some things.

I really do wish everyone the best and right outcomes that make for clear sailing regards events and stuff.

I also am very aware that all of you involved, both sides, and/or effected directly in this, well, many of you contributed and were to be hosting me while I was over there, and I guess on a personal level, it's hard for me to be seeing the negative feelings between some of you now, and wish it wasn't happening, all round, so the next best wish would be for speedy resolution and I'm hoping for the best for all of you.

That said, I'll close my Yappy wee mouth and be quiet now

Carman
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