New Stock for the War & Fleece shop

I cannot claim any originality, wish I could; some of the hardy Beltring attendees this year may get a smile:-

From the War & Greed Shop.

Fashion wear

FLEECES - why wait till July to get fleeced when you can buy one now?

BELTRING SAND - genuine sand from the most significant military site since WW2



Our best DVD Titles.....


SHAFT

GONE IN 60 SECONDS

GONE WITH THE KEYS

ENTER THE DRAGON WAGON (subject to a £25 entry fee)
TANK GIRL (subject to a £25 entry fee)
BEN HUR (subject to a £25 entry fee)

WRISTBAND OF BROTHERS

THE DIRTY DOZEN PORTALOOS

SAVING PRIVATE CASH

WENT THE DAY WELL £££?

CHEQUE POINT CHARLIE

THE AMAZING MR RIP-OFF

ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOOS NEST (subject to a £25 flying over fee)

DICK TURPIN (- an earlier story of highway robbery)

THE BATTLE OF PORTALOO

CARRY ON CHARGING

CARRY ON CAMPING (subject to a £25 per day tent fee)

SUPPOSE THEY GAVE A SHOW AND NOBODY CAME (Starring PeedOff Sellers)

THE BATTLE OF THE BULGING WALLET

THE LONGEST QUEUE

THE COUNT OF MONEY CHRISTOE

DEBBIE DOES DOLLARS

ALL QUIET ON THE WEDNESDAY FRONT

THE HULK ( a wide RANGE of episodes.......)

GYPSIES, CHAMPS and THIEVES - a special remix of the poplar 1970's pop song.

Books-

Creative Accounting - Rex shows you how

THE FEEDING OF THE 5 THOUSAND

21 YEARS OF WAR AND PEACE - The Missing Years (Hurry while stocks last)

RICH MAN POOR MAN - the biography of the war and peace directors


HEALTH AND SAFETY - how to make it earn you money

[dougiebarder]

Your own show still not quiet getting the numbers you'd like then?

Originally posted by dougiebarder
Your own show still not quiet getting the numbers you'd like then?

Not at all, in fact next year promises to be packed out and enough to keep us overly busy; however, the SMVT doesn't claim a 400% untruthful entry, doesn't invent "visitor numbers" by a concocted mathematical sum, doesn't charge traders £150/pitch, doesn't charge anything for any entrant, doesn't charge for caravans, doesn't charge for support vehicles. SMVT does provide a hugely better and cleaner toilet facilities and 8 mains water taps.

Things aren't set on fire by late-night pyrotechnics and you don't have to run the gauntlet of kids on quads; SMVT doesn't use the HSE as an excuse to make money either.

Maybe though its incorrect to compare a business with a MV show run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. I understand, allegedly, that IMPS have now wholly disconnected from W&P, individuals can make of this what they will.

I feel for IMPS, it was great while they did it and they have been conned it seems.

But what would I know?

R.

[Mike Kelly]

More DVD titles available at the War and Greed show :



THE WALLET BUSTERS

THE GREAT ESCAPE ( Given out as a free gift to patrons as they leave )

THE SWINDLE ON THE RIVER MEDWAY

Mike

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
More DVD titles available at the War and Greed show :

G'die,

Ripper mate.

I'll send the additions back to where I got the originals from.

R.

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
More DVD titles available at the War and Greed show :

I think the esteemed Ballington-Winn will be excited by this latest, and not to be missed, promotional offer from those frightfully nice people from the Beltring Hop Farm and W&P Show;

"Run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. . . ." it says, but not what they're enthusiastic in, however, I'm sure it must be old army trucks as the enclosed entry form says:

"Over 3000 Military vehicles and tanks" I must be senile, as you all keep telling me, since I thought I read "Almost 4000 vehicles" for this year, not getting smaller surely. Some huge number of people must be getting forms very early since Ballard and I have only just got ours.

"1000 trade stands. . . ." I am senile since that was 1250 recently I thought, but as you all know I am a complete idiot anyway.

Apparently, the entry form says the show running enthusiasts need £25 which is Can$56.15 to take your truck and you get a full 2 free adult and child passes for this and a "campsite pitch". Should you need extra passes these are only £30 (Can$67.38 to you), the only difficult bit is that apparently "Due to new licensing laws" you need to define the type of camping, perhaps our resident MLU HSO can clarify.

In a generous move you can take a support car too for another £25 (Can$56.15) but you mustn't have these anywhere near your truck.

In a considerate and philanthropic gesture, late entries after 1 July are only £50 or Can$112.30

Apparently the site speed limit is 5mph but I am unclear if this also applies to minors on quad bikes and drunks as it doesn't say exactly; and no transference of fuels is allowed either so I must have dreamed about Mr Gas-Axe Brown's T55 Tiger being fuelled from, and by one of the organising enthusiasts.

Mr McSpool will please note that "Vehicles are not permitted to leave the site between 9am and 5pm on show days" so you really must get organised for this "very relaxed, informal event with a minimum of rules and restrictions", make sure you have your shopping done outside show hours then, and take steps to ensure the ferry/airline/train/taxi you use complies accordingly so that you don't arrive or have to leave in breach of the curfew hours.

McSpool will also note that "a one-way system will be in operation and all vehicles must abide by this", I know this is difficult for you continentals used to driving on the wrong side of the road but you really must try harder.

Very sensibly you may not bring any pyrotechnic or blank rounds, which means someone can forcibly expel bodily gas in the small hours exactly like a thunderflash report which is a very impressive capability and will upset Ballard greatly; also all weapons brought on site must comply with our "CURRENT UK legislation" so be cautious of early demils. (ie. if any part moves). Apparently you cannot carry any weapon around the site but I assume the enthusiast organisers have thought of this and should you buy one from one of the 1000 dealers then secure transport will be provided; however, rest assured that with extreme kindness should you ignore these sensible rules then expect "not to be re-invited to attend."

I see there is a contact number for the show's mobile latrine suppliers should you wish to hire your own privately; but I'd not put too much moment on this since it is patently obvious that the organising enthusiasts will ensure that the exhibitors are carefully and properly provided for with plenty of toilets kept excellently serviced by judicious application of the facility fee with care and dedication.

Apparently the two nights of special entertainment are by advance ticket only, I regret I cannot find the price anywhere in the documents that landed on the mat this morning but I sure it will be a most acceptable pittance of a token gesture only since this is again "Run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. . . . ."

Oh, excuse me, where was I; yes the offer you especially can't miss Geoff. Amongst this prodigious and professionally presented glossy paper, there is to be a Beltring Book !!!!

Co-written by Mr.R.Cadman with one other; it says this will be published on 1 July 2004 and contain "15 pages of full text", "around 400 photographs", together with "facts and figures" which I look forwards to so I may be unconfused about these, and "photo captions wherever possible". There is a call for photos on the glossy flyer so I hope you will all rally-round so that the 400 pictorial insertions can be made.

An absolute snip at £29.99 or Can$67.36 and even more so as its post free in the UK and generously only an extra fiver for overseas if you order now making just a measly £34.99 or Can$78.59; in your position Geoff you really should have two and keep one for best.

But here's the gem of an opportunity to elevate the status of our much-loved MLU to the pinnacle of all things MV, you can have a whole, full colour page for the absolutely piffling sum of £350 which is only Can$786.08, a mere bagatelle to your esteemed personage I'm sure, but to ensure a commensurate full page insertion I am sending you separately two and sixpence as a donation.

You need to move fast, apparently its "first come, first served (as pages are limited)" and I can fully understand this with 15 pages of full text to include as well. Better get to it esteemed Mr. MLU, only movement brings victory.

R.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by FV623

"Over 3000 Military vehicles and tanks" I must be senile, as you all keep telling me, since I thought I read "Almost 4000 vehicles" for this year, not getting smaller surely. Some huge number of people must be getting forms very early since Ballard and I have only just got ours.

I take it after all that, you will not be entering then?

Oh...and you never mentioned the nice Christmas card they sent.

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
I take it after all that, you will not be entering then?

Oh...and you never mentioned the nice Christmas card they sent.

I think not, the whole group of usual attendees here struck it off the calendar before last Christmas owing to the show-making exhibitor charges and I cannot repeat the comments received from various traders and some regular exhibitor friends on the subject that we met at the Malvern Militaria Fair recently, one usual, large promotional stand was significant by its absence.

We feel our MVT colleagues and others running non-commercial shows are more worthy of support than pay-to-enter business ventures, as has been confirmed in writing, see:
http://www.solentmvt.co.uk/beltring.htm

In fact what with this and the private responses, received here on variously headed paper from the organisers, with some catastrophic mathematical errors too, I am quite surprised to still be on the file; still, no accounting for taste is there?

No, I'll pay the trucker to take the old dog elsewhere along with the car and caravan to support the remainder of the Shirrell Heath LRDG, who tell me they aren't too keen on paying for an enforced re-enactment of a concentration camp anyway.

I did mention the card you know, its the one that has:
"Organised by enthusiasts for enthusiasts" inside, and the lower left cover picture has a chap wearing a Motorola MDRMN4018 headset, there's a MDH25KDC9AN3-E VHF GP340 hanging on the other end but you can't see that.

All the best

R.

[dougiebarder]

FV623 what is your problem? every post I've seen from you over the last year or so is bitching about the beltring show.
They must have done something really terrible to you to upset you this much (take visitors away from your show maybe?) The price hike was annoying, but I won't complain about £25 for a week's entertainment. One of the bonus's you didn't mention in your whinge is the fact that reenactors get in free-this has got to be a good thing (at least one vehicle owner is getting in free by calling himself a recovery vehicle re-enactment group). Sorry to other users of this group for possibly starting something, but beltring is still a good show and it only seem's to be FV623 (and those he represents) that are constantly griping.
on that line do any other non biased posters have an opinion on this?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by dougiebarder
on that line do any other non biased posters have an opinion on this?

dougiebarder,

I have only been to the Beltring show for the past five years, and have seen nothing change, but the entry price. For those that have been attending the show for a longer period, I can understand they have seen changing the show more fundamentally. Especially this year, when the entry fees were raised considerably "due to safety, health and environment regulations", not much had changed really compared to the year before. A forum member who in daily life is a safety, health and environment officer ensured me the only thing W&P had done was placing crush barriers over the bridge and near the toilet/shower building to separate traffic from the pedestrians. Frankly, the showers have been appalling ever since I visited the show (or was this all part of the living history experience of life in a WW2 prison camp : ) and I have no doubt facilities like this would be closed down in my home country. So to get rid of the Beltring dust I have relied on McStolly's gas-fired portable shower, a tight fit for my 6'6" frame but a major improvement over the showers I paid for.

I have known FV623, a.k.a. McStolly or Richard Notton, for many years and what he objects to mainly is that W&P does not tell the true story and does not deliver. Visitor/vehicle numbers are exaggerated, entry fees are constantly raised with no real countervalue, etc. etc.

I feel the W&P show is deliberately steering away from what started it all - displaying historic military vehicles - especially now I hear you saying "reenactors get in free"(!). Now what about vehicle owners, they really make the show, don't they?!?

Regards,
Hanno

Originally posted by dougiebarder
FV623 what is your problem? every post I've seen from you over the last year or so is bitching about the beltring show.

You are only reading these digital characters through the good offices of my close friend Mr. MLU and in diffidence therefore I'll not address the points individually and at length.

Hanno, as a non-English speaker and therefore to be congratulated again, has articulated and encapsulated it exactly.

You need to keep working on The Big Wing, still a bit slow to get off. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

R.

[dougiebarder]

Mr Spoelstra (sorry if this sounds too formal)
I'll be the first to admit the showers are terrible, but that will be the case for any event at the hop farm and it's the owners that should come in for a good amount of the complaints. I've always worked on the theory that you have to put up with certain things when camping. I think the worst thing the organisers of war and peace did was not raise the price earlier by a small amount a year to cover any inflation and any other increase in cost's rather than by adding it all at once.

My real gripe is the fact that FV623-Mr Notton has been complaining for at least since the last show with no constructive things to say other than he will not attending (and that others should also not go). In my opinion as a relative newcomer is that beltring is worth saving and all the ordinary attendees can get thihngs changed. I agree that it should be an MV sow, but also find it intresting to see the reenactors-in which case your prison camp idea might work well.
I thing all of our vehicles look better with a few accessories, It's just I thing that most of us are not wannabe actors (either American or German) To sum up I would rather choose between one show and another because I'd heard something good about one, not bad about the other.
PS I've got to agree about your English, the Dutch and scandinavians always put us to shame on the language front.

Originally posted by dougiebarder
Mr Spoelstra (sorry if this sounds too formal)
I'll be the first to admit the showers are terrible, but that will be the case for any event at the hop farm and it's the owners that should come in for a good amount of the complaints. I've always worked on the theory that you have to put up with certain things when camping.

My real gripe is the fact that FV623-Mr Notton has been complaining for at least since the last show with no constructive things to say other than he will not attending (and that others should also not go).

1. Have I missed something ? Isn't it the Hop Farm W&P organisation that is getting the complaints ? With respect please re-read http://www.solentmvt.co.uk/beltring.htm

2. A tenner a day at a campsite usually sees the provision of per pitch mains electrical connection and water too. Have you checked the fees for camping only? Suggest you do.

3. My real gripe is that you have unacceptably accredited me with telling people not to go. As Hanno has tried to tell you it is:
A) Getting the numbers hype to more correctly equal reality.
B) Having the exhibitor better informed as to what he may or may not be paying for thereby allowing a reasoned and individual decision.

4. Be aware that IMPS have held a referenda to wholly detach from W&P allegedly because of the gross breach of legal contract propagated by the latter, and allegedly to correctly pursue W&P for a legal remedy. Personally I am so sorry for IMPS who seem to have been let down very badly and now have to go through this hassle.

5. Would you like to research the title of the proposed book I referred to and tell us what you find about the accuracy of "War & Peace Show" "1982 - 2003", as a clue start at 1982.

4. Of paramount importance, kindly show me where it is written, by me, specifically, that "others should also not go". Either define the exact source of this quote you refer to, or I'd be obliged if you would post a retraction of your statement here immediately.
Please note a retraction is wholly adequate and an apology is not required.

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by dougiebarder
Mr Spoelstra (sorry if this sounds too formal)
I'll be the first to admit the showers are terrible, but that will be the case for any event at the hop farm and it's the owners that should come in for a good amount of the complaints. I've always worked on the theory that you have to put up with certain things when camping. I think the worst thing the organisers of war and peace did was not raise the price earlier by a small amount a year to cover any inflation and any other increase in cost's rather than by adding it all at once.

dougiebarder (Doug?),

We're just venting opinions here, so there's no need for being formal - please call me Hanno (or McSpool, for that matter).
Beltring for me has been great fun during the past few years as I meet like-minded people there. To me these are people who restore and drive historic military vehicles, and kit them out to varying degrees. Somehow, even though some wear the correct clothing, playing soldier is generally a phase left behind in the teenage years. Mind you, I have no objections to reenactors, other than I have no interest in doing it myself. I even value the ones who make an effort to really display history. On the other hand, I have no interest in those who are merely playing soldier (suggestion: join the Territorial Army). Even though the W&P regulations state uniforms shall not be worn outside the display areas, the first thing I saw when I got to Beltring for the first time was people dressed up as German soldiers directing traffic. Anyway, enough about that.

This year my friends of the Shirrell Heath LRDG decided not to come as elucidated by McStolly. One of the main points he is making is regarding the increase in cost: there can't be any as there have not been any improvements, whereas the claimed increase in number of attendants and visitors should cover inflation with ease.

For me it is simple: an increase in cost - which is considerable anyway when one is coming over from the continent - is not going to keep me away. Bad facilities are not keeping me away either (I have been on excersises with Marines, so I can put up with "certain things" when camping). I can even put up with uniformed people strutting around the showgrounds showing off medals and rank insignia they do not deserve to wear (and wear in an unappropriate manner to boot).
What will stop me coming is when my friends are no longer coming there, and I think next year will be critical for W&P in that respect.

Hanno

[dougiebarder]

FV626 to clarify, when I claimed you had told others not to attend I am talking to about your sugestion a while back that your friends should go to your show instead of beltring. I realise this is not a direct request to others, but (as I'm sure you know) the likes of you,hanno, Mr WB have a great influence on others reading this and other forums.(As you said 1982-2003 ). As I said when I first posted on this forum I've been reading it for a good year or so. And I'm glad to say I fould the main MLU site before that.
Ideally I would like to find a site/forum for rex cadman and direct these complaints to him. (although I'm sure he knows). Rather than having both of us griping at each other (I know I'm as bad as anybody) It would be preferable to put pressure on the beltring organisers-In fact I hope the IMPS are putting pressure on Mr Cadman to improve things.
To end I will appologise for any personal insult to anybody reading this-it's not intended. Unfortunatly beltring is the only big show I seem to make it to, so I want it to improve and not wreck itself.

[Mike Kelly]

A few comments .

Most of the classic vehicle events I know of over here are run by clubs and they do not charge entry fees for vehicles and crews if you arrive in a restored vehicle , they do usually charge a small fee for the public . The events that do charge fees for participating classic or old vehicles are usually run to make money for a charity of some sort .

I must say it is most unusual to have a classic vehicle event that is run by a private business in order to to make a profit for that business . Does anyone know of any others apart from Beltring ?

The local MV club here used to have a policy ( still current I believe ) of not attending any events that charge a entry fee for restored vehicles and crews , the exception is charity events . When you think about it , after spending hundreds hours of your life and much money re-building a vehicle , then having to pay reg/ fuel / insurance costs to get it to a event , the final blow would be paying to get in . Another point is , I would think that the immediate area surrounding the W&P show in Kent would gain quite a lot financially , eg. hotels , inns etc. We , the struggling back yard restorers who make these shows possible are in many cases, not appreciated enough by event organisers ,we are often taken for granted .

The best way to look at the MV scene is through the eyes of a classic vehicle enthusiast , not through the eyes of a loony running around playing soldiers . Many of the re-enactors wouldn't know a Sherman tank from a BSA folding pushbike .

Mike

[dougiebarder]

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
Many of the re-enactors wouldn't know a Sherman tank from a BSA folding pushbike .

If I meet him-I'm buying a Sherman.

I agree it would be nice to get in free (although I've only got an FFR landrover-I go to see the older stuff). But £25 is a drop in the ocean even compared to spares for my vehicle (and as I think Hanno said the price of getting there is the major factor), and if that's what it takes to make it a big show it's what I am willing to pay. I also think that at least some of the vehicles should have at least reduced entry. It would be intresting to see a breakdown of the public versus exhibitor takings.
On the reenactor front it would seem a good idea to get them digging quad bike traps and maybe putting up latrines and field showers instead of runing round like loonies.
On a different tack, where do you keep your vehicles-I'd love to get a FAT one day, but storage seem's the main problem.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by dougiebarder
Ideally I would like to find a site/forum for rex cadman and direct these complaints to him. (although I'm sure he knows). Rather than having both of us griping at each other (I know I'm as bad as anybody) It would be preferable to put pressure on the beltring organisers-In fact I hope the IMPS are putting pressure on Mr Cadman to improve things.
To end I will appologise for any personal insult to anybody reading this-it's not intended. Unfortunatly beltring is the only big show I seem to make it to, so I want it to improve and not wreck itself.

Dougie,

I must commend you for trying to improve the show, for me too it is the only big show I seem to be able to make it to.
See if you get a reaction from posting your gripes on "The War and Peace Show Forums".

Hanno

[dougiebarder]

Hanno-I've just registered , but it isn't the most popular of forum's. I just hope that it gets read by the organisers. The beltring show really is made good by the people who go and I really hope the organisers don't screw it up for us.
How about any other users here starting posting on the beltring forum for the required improvements as well. War and peace is great anyway-with good toilets( or at least enough) and showers it can only get bigger and better.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Hi Doug,

I've stayed out of this thus far, but I WILL put in my two cents' worth.

First, I echo Mike's comments... the exhibitors are who MAKE the show... why should they be penalized for it?

Next, Richard is a long-time personal friend, and I trust his judgement implicitly. I've only attended Beltring, not displayed, but I understand his position perfectly.... and yes, trying to find a "clean" shitter over the last weekend tended to become a bit of a droll experience. Never mind trying to clean one's body.

And Richard knows his stuff. He runs another show which makes money WITHOUT screwing the guys who MAKE the show what it is.

Three. I'll also echo Hanno's comment (another close personal friend, BTW). I can't afford to come over from Canada more than once per year - if that - and I will time my visits to meet the good friends I've made from all over; if they aren't at Beltring but ARE gathering elsewhere... I'll be at that "elsewhere". I come over for the people. As Mike indicated, they are the core of these shows.

Beltring WAS wonderful, but I really do think they've shot themselves in the foot. Otherwise, why would dedicated people stay away...?

Respectfully,

Geoff

[dougiebarder]

"And Richard knows his stuff. He runs another show which makes money WITHOUT screwing the guys who MAKE the show what it is."

I know your right, it was just the fact that the person having a go at beltring was also the person with his own show (which I'm sure is a damn good one). It must make it very difficult to have an unbiased opionon (or to be seen to have one at least).
As I said in a previous post-you guys are highly respected in this field and your opinions are the one's people listen to (in fact it's probably reading one of the bits you wrote about beltring that got my intrest in the first place).
The general opinion of almost everybody that's been there is that it's a good show, so it seem's better to me to try and sort out the bits we don't like than have to start again from scratch.I've posted on the beltring forum about changing the toilet facilities-for what it's worth-it's not well used forum.
Dougie.
ps any updates the the MLU site due? I've been looking foreward to the radio's section coming on line. but I also realise what a huge job you must have keeping everything running as it is.

[Pete Ashby]

The cost of safety at Beltring could be determined by asking the organising committee to make available the Risk Assessments prepared for the show. These must exist because this would have been the starting point for any HSE involvement.
For those not familiar with the process it works like this:

An organisation (in this case the it will be the W&P sit down with a qualified risk assessor and undertake a brain storming exercise that should identify all credible hazards the qualified assessor will advise on what is credible and what is not based on national accident statistics relevant for the undertaking being assessed.

Next step is that the people/property/plant at risk due to the hazard is identified for each hazard listed.

The existing control if any is identified

The assessor will now assign a severity harm factor to each identified grouping, this is done in slightly different ways depending on who is constructing the risk assessment. Basically it works as follows it is either extremely harmful, harmful or slightly harmful. Guidance is given in the relevant HSE publication that deal with risk assessment, the levels run from loss of life down to a slight abrasion.

Now the likelihood of the event occurring is factored in from highly likely , likely , unlikely or highly unlikely

The risk category is now calculated again this can be done in several ways some assessor assign number values to the severity and likelihood others produce a simple matrix. The idea is that the risk is assigned as being High, Moderate, Tolerable or Low

Any risk that comes out as high or moderate the HSE will expect to see proposed actions listed and a revised risk category applied. For those of you still awake this is where the money will/should have been spent.

All Risk Assessments are legal documents and will have been signed off by the assessor undertaking the work and a senior member of the organisation. As you can see this is a very formal process and for something of the magnitude of the W&P undertaking I would expect it to run to multiple A4 sheets of close packed tabulated data.
This document should be visible to all employees, participants and indeed any member of the public, I'm not sure about the law with regard to public events but in my world it would have to be signed onto as read and understood by all who are involved with the activity.

I have already made my position clear on Beltring in a previous thread as part of my critique after the last show,..........if you want answers ask the right questions.

Pete

Originally posted by dougiebarder


1) I also think that at least some of the vehicles should have at least reduced entry.

2) It would be intresting to see a breakdown of the public versus exhibitor takings.

3) On the reenactor front it would seem a good idea to get them digging quad bike traps and maybe putting up latrines and field showers instead of runing round like loonies.

OK one last stab and I'm done, I'm painfully aware that it will drag on and I will not rain of Geoff's parade any more or create further waves of ennui that our chums from afar must be drowning in.

(I added the numbers for clarity)

1) Please read http://www.solentmvt.co.uk/beltring.htm this was addressed.

2) Please read http://www.solentmvt.co.uk/beltring.htm this was addressed too. I too would be interested, however, I have wholly insufficient years left to wait until well after Hell freezes over.
You know the charges, exhibitor, support, public entry, camping + bodies therein and single stall pitches, plug their claimed numbers in, hit the calculator.
Guess the concession fees, here's a clue for a fart-arse show:
Beer 1K, Food 1K, ice cream 250.
Consider sponsorship - all those logos on the paperwork
I have a quote here for 60 (sixty) bogs inc daily servicing + septic tanks (latter not needed for the subject venue) - 4K

When you come up with around 1 million quid tell me how that squares with charging the show-making MV exhibitors, because I'm buggered if I can.

3) Hey, steady on; I'll need to rush up to Oxford and attend the leading light HSO of the Oxford CMP LRDG for CPR with a suggestion like that. However, it could sound like an excellent wheeze to hike the exhibitor "facility fee" because of extra HSE entanglements.

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem at all whatsoever with you putting your hand in your pocket and handing over the readies; not my part of ship at all, never was and never will be.

That's enough of that.

Now, esteemed Ffoeg Allwinn-Bington you may tap me up for a beer or ten at the end of next May; I'm quite safe with the ten as we have arranged for some HSB from the renowned brewery you could fall into from the end of the site; apart from our proper pints as opposed to your namby-pamby 20% short measures, it seems to be almost 5% stuff also so I'm quite safe, however, it should keep you fuelled in the manner to which you are acustomed and commensurate with your revered position.
http://www.galesales.co.uk/guide/beer/hsb.cfm

As a special favour I am leaning on Ballard heavily to allow you another jog around in his old Canadian DTB truck, but I shall want a full report on his Ford gearbox changing exploits duly marked on a 1 to 10 scale of the graunch factor. An additional note of any graunch-coincidental expletives, basic Anglo-Saxon or references to the correct parentage of the DTB F15 gearbox will win you bonus marks and a free pint (1.20094941337pt Canadian).

R.

[dougiebarder]

I'll tack this on the end of this subject, as I presume only people intrested in beltring will be reading it.
Can people who go to or are intrested in beltring register on the war and peace forum and let them know we would like more toilets and showers next year please.
I know some might scoff at this effort, but as they say "If you don't ask you don't get).
Cheers Dougie.

Well, you who know of the legal contract between W&P Ltd and IMPS, the originators and founders of "Beltring" might like to draw your own conclusions from the entry, pasted in below, in the UK Companies House register of businesses, the last three lines are pertinent.

To my simple mind it represents a hand made sign directed towards IMPS denoting the quantity of two; or for those on the North American continent, one.

R.

Name & Registered Office :
HOP FARM ENTERPRISES LIMITED
THE HOP FARM COUNTRY PARK
BELTRING, PADDOCK WOOD
TONBRIDGE
KENT TN12 6PY
Status :Active
Company No. :03830229
Date of Incorporation : 23/08/1999

Country of Origin : United Kingdom



Company Type: Private Limited Company
Nature Of Business (SIC(92)):
7487 - other business activities




Accounting Reference Date : 31/12
Last Accounts Made Up To : 31/12/2001 (DORMANT)
Next Accounts Due : 31/10/2003 OVERDUE
Last Return Made Up To : 23/08/2003
Next Return Due : 20/09/2004


Last Members List : 23/08/2003





Previous Names
Date of Change : Previous Name :
16/12/2003 WAR & PEACE LIMITED

[dougiebarder]

So the name's changed - so what. If you will insist on running a one man war against this show at least keep it relavent.
Acording to the imps web site the agreement with war and peace was/is

" War and Peace Limited (set up by Rex and Brent Pollard -club member and the owner of the Hop Farm) and the IMPS would continue, risk free, to benefit financially from the show with a guaranteed revenue - come rain or shine"

If that has changed then it makes a difference (although not much of a difference to a non imps member).
You still seem to be suffering from "show envy" are you not confident enough in your own product ?

On an issue far more important to beltring goers, this is the part of the reply I got from Rex Cadman asking for better shower and toilet facilities.
"To answer you, firstly the War and Peace Show is the only Show at the Hop
Farm that uses all the facilities to the full. Secondly Mid Kent Water have
provided the maximum pressure we can have and thirdly we are restricted on
the amount of waste we can shift.

This said we are fully aware of the issues in respect of the toilets and
showers. With this knowledge to hand there are considerable improvements
being carried out this at time of writing.

In respect of the extra toilets we hire in we were appalled as I am sure you
were by the dreadful state and poor lack of maintenance we received from
last years suppliers, who will not be resupplying in 2004. A great deal of
effort has gone into finding a suitable, trustworthy toilet supplier at a
great deal of cost, which we believe will considerably improve the
situation. This said it did not stop some person stealing two of last years
blue boxes! A further eight were vandalised beyond acceptable wear and
tear, these we were billed for none of which makes this very difficult area
any easier.

We very much appreciate your support and hope in 2004 that you feel we have
corrected this problem in a satisfactory manner.

Wishing you all the very best for the New Year.

Rex Cadman"

I'll be there to check it out!.

In fact what I'm trying to say Mr Mcstolly is please stop griping about Beltring and give us all more information about your own show. (people are more likely to choose your show over beltring if they hear good things about your's, rather that bad things about beltring-paticularly from the organiser of the rival show)

Originally posted by dougiebarder
So the name's changed - so what. If you will insist on running a one man war against this show at least keep it relavent.

I do believe it is relevant as you may well do also if you were properly informed and had taken the time to research the facts.

This certainly not a war, battle, or even a minor skirmish, however, there are many more than me who can see the truth and would not wish their colleagues in the MV scene to be ill-informed

>
Acording to the imps web site the agreement with war and peace was/is
>

This is out of date but still relevant to an extent, I would direct your reading to the IMPS minutes over the last 18 months and the actual binding contract properly conveyed between W&P Ltd and IMPS.

>
" War and Peace Limited (set up by Rex and Brent Pollard -club member and the owner of the Hop Farm) and the IMPS would continue, risk free, to benefit financially from the show with a guaranteed revenue - come rain or shine"
>

So, perhaps you could tell us how the legal contract now stands since W&P Ltd ceases to exist and the position it leaves IMPS in ?

Are you aware that the directors of W&P Ltd tried to wind-up W&P Ltd last year without any reference to IMPS because as they stated they "forgot"?

You should also be aware, and would know if you were properly informed, that the IMPS member you refer to above resigned some considerable time ago, almost a year now I think and maybe more, by physically throwing his documentation at the chairman, as they record.

>
If that has changed then it makes a difference (although not much of a difference to a non imps member).
>

To someone who is concerned with honourable practice generally and fair practice specifically for the larger MV movement it makes a huge difference and indicates perhaps the mind-set of the people you have to deal with.

>
You still seem to be suffering from "show envy" are you not confident enough in your own product ?
>

This is incorrect as I have previously stated and you have heard from others similarly. I consider this to be an unacceptable personal slight and besmirchment.

>
On an issue far more important to beltring goers, this is the part of the reply I got from Rex Cadman asking for better shower and toilet facilities.
"To answer you, firstly the War and Peace Show is the only Show at the Hop Farm that uses all the facilities to the full. >Secondly Mid Kent Water have provided the maximum pressure >we can have and thirdly we are restricted on the amount of >waste we can shift.
>

For which you pay £25 to enter and another £25 to take a support vehicle.

Is this not an admission of wholly inadequate and unsafe "facilities" ?

>
This said we are fully aware of the issues in respect of the toilets and showers. With this knowledge to hand there are considerable improvements being carried out this at time of writing.
>

This has been said before, fine words but time will tell.

>
In respect of the extra toilets we hire in we were appalled as I am sure you were by the dreadful state and poor lack of maintenance we received from last years suppliers, who will not be resupplying in 2004. A great deal of effort has gone into finding a suitable, trustworthy toilet supplier at a great deal of cost, which we believe will considerably improve the
situation. This said it did not stop some person stealing two of last years blue boxes! A further eight were vandalised beyond acceptable wear and tear, these we were billed for none of which makes this very difficult area any easier.
>

I believe if you research this you will find the contractor has been unchanged for many years and has been a continual source of complaint, have you considered why this contractor has been used year in and year out ?

Since the show was run by a commercial limited company what redress or compensation have you asked for or been offered against the "facility fee" you have paid out for and plainly not received?

Do let us know.

>
We very much appreciate your support and hope in 2004 that you feel we have corrected this problem in a satisfactory manner.
>

We shall see.

>
I'll be there to check it out!.
>

And perhaps some others too, although all the people I trust and respect for considered, objective judgement will not be there as far as I know.

>
In fact what I'm trying to say Mr Mcstolly is please stop griping about Beltring and give us all more information about your own show. (people are more likely to choose your show over beltring if they hear good things about your's, rather that bad things about beltring-paticularly from the organiser of the rival show)
>

I do believe there are several valid and cogent gripes; the chicanery and apparent disposal of IMPS as the contract holder and the relieving of people's show-making money for no return as just two.

I do believe if your electricity, gas, phone, internet or whatever provider, had taken these sums of money from you for the same level of parlous and unacceptable facility provision, you would be griping long and hard whilst pursuing them keenly for some recompense. Do you deny this ?

I find your attitude congruent with that of the US Govt at their entry into WWII, to keep to your invented "war" theme, in respect of their fixed attitude towards that nice Uncle Joe Stalin and the conviction that Erwin Rommel and the DAK was a beaten and spent force. They were gravely mistaken.

Firstly it is not "my" show as I have told you. Overlord is run by the committee and members of the Solent Area MVT, my part is just to make the necessary arrangements and co-ordinate and direct that effort as the Show Secretary.

We have released the details and I can tell you there are no charges whatsoever for entrants, we provide over 30 toilets for a show well under one quarter the size of a claimed Beltring and 40cu metres of rubbish collection. There is a six bay shower unit on site and the beer tent entertainment is free, not by paid ticket entry. Eight mains taps are provided around the site and stall holders pay just £3/ft for 25ft deep pitches.

We do not provide blue tank car crushing spectacles or take money from a noisy and intrusive helicopter ride concession. We do not hand out pages of glossy and expensive bumf but every entrant gets the now established and customary polished and printed slate coaster which costs me hours in personal artwork effort and the Area something like a half a gallon of UK petrol to give away as a token of our appreciation, plus this year a facsimile of The Stars and Stripes wartime paper as a show guide.

The SMVT can correctly be described as MV enthusiasts and we are a charity, not a for-profit business. I do not wish anyone to choose any one show over any other; here again you have digressed at a tangent to what you have been clearly told by me and others. I do desire though that people have all the facts and comprehension to make considered, reasoned and rational judgements.

In diffidence to my good friend and the provider of these facilities I shall therefore curtail this Sisyphean task with you since it is obviously a wholly nugatory effort.

R.

[dougiebarder]

Just one point. You say
"I do believe there are several valid and cogent gripes; the chicanery and apparent disposal of IMPS as the contract holder and the relieving of people's show-making money for no return as just two."
I'd just like to know why they are your gripes-you're obviously not going to beltring and as far as I can make out your not an IMPS member either. Your claim that your doing all this griping just to inform other mv owners seem's to suggest you think they are of a child like state incapable of doing their own homework.
There are plenty of independant reviews of beltring.
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoels...tring_2000.htm

http://www.rbuckland.freeserve.co.uk/Beltring2002.HTML

Under England and western europe
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/lsm/dhmg/index.html

These are just a few I found.
When it comes down to it, all this thread proves is that you don't like War and peace and I do.
So why don't we both shut up and let people make up their own mind's?

[Phil Waterman]

Nothing to do with the number of people attending War&Peace.

But years ago I worked for a hosbital that had a really big charity car show. The Public Relations Director who organised the show had a habit of claiming a crowd far larger than actuall attended. Until one year he made the mistake of collecting the money from the gate and counting it all by himself. You can guess what happened the auditor, a car fan, remembered what was said in the newspaper story and then looked at the deposit slip. The math did not quite work. You guessed it, there was a new Public Relations Director shortly there after.

Originally posted by dougiebarder

>
Just one point. You say
"I do believe there are several valid and cogent gripes; the chicanery and apparent disposal of IMPS as the contract holder and the relieving of people's show-making money for no return as just two."
>
So, no answer to the questions posed?

>
I'd just like to know why they are your gripes-you're obviously not going to beltring and as far as I can make out your not an IMPS member either.
>
I wonder if "gripes", as you call them in this instance is valid nomenclature.

I can line up many MV people here, without a net connection incidentally, with a concurrent view.

>
Your claim that your doing all this griping just to inform other mv owners seem's to suggest you think they are of a child like state incapable of doing their own homework.
>

Well, perhaps Q.E.D. has indeed been thus demonstrated. See below too.


>
There are plenty of independant reviews of beltring.
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoel...ltring_2000.htm
>
I attended the 2000 show happily and you have heard directly from Hanno in this forum. (See "homework" above)

>
http://www.rbuckland.freeserve.co.uk/Beltring2002.HTML
>
I attended the 2002 show happily. (See "homework" above)

>
Under England and western europe
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/lsm/dhmg/index.html
>
My chum Doug Greville from Broken Hill, Oz, a house guest here after the 2000 show, which again I happily attended. I trust you read Doug's pages of "gripes",as you call them, from your reference about Beltring. (See "homework" above)


>
These are just a few I found.
When it comes down to it, all this thread proves is that you don't like War and peace and I do.
>
Really?

Re-check what I actually said to them as recorded in the SMVT web site, and where have I said in this thread I didn't LIKE the SHOW ? (See "homework" above)

>
So why don't we both shut up and let people make up their own mind's?
>

There are three possible scenarios here that will have me desist from exposing the obvious people/vehicle anomalies and apparent profiteering, plus having a little joke now and again as an illustration. The scenarios are:

1. I kick the bucket.
2. GWB alone tells me to desist.
3. I decide when.

None of these three conditions have been met, so the answer to your last question must therefore be no.

R.