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  #301  
Old 29-10-10, 22:32
Richard Coutts-Smith Richard Coutts-Smith is offline
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Clive,
Is that the same sort of "Mechanical Reliability" that British vehicles are loved and reknown for.....
Keith,
the curved base plate ends mean that carrier Jacks do work OK as boat anchors, and it is not a big deal when you lose one. Just another $2 at the next swap meet.
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  #302  
Old 29-10-10, 23:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Coutts-Smith View Post
Clive,
Is that the same sort of "Mechanical Reliability" that British vehicles are loved and reknown for.....
Oh yes most certainly. Borne out by the trials at Innisfail 1955-6



I do just wonder what the outcome would have been if a properly serviced vehicle had been delivered on time, with spares, documents & technical backup.
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  #303  
Old 30-10-10, 00:31
Richard Coutts-Smith Richard Coutts-Smith is offline
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Clive, Clive, Clive,
You can't put something like that up and walk away, even if it is 2.00am.
Is this Innisfail Australia? 1955/56: production would have ceased by then? Army or Civilian?
Sounds like the Humbers biggest problem was lack of customer support. Maybe they were training for the exemplary service standards to be set by British Leyland in the 1970's.
More please.
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  #304  
Old 30-10-10, 00:43
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Rich yes "Tropical Trials at Innisfail, Queensland Oct 1955 - May 1956"
Vehicles involved Saracen, Ferret, Humber 1 Ton, Champ

As British Humbers go the last ones into service were mid 1955. The report refers to them as Humbers, but that may be a colloquialism for FV1601 as we know they were plated as Commers for you.

Might have a picture or two
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Old 30-10-10, 01:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fv1620 View Post
Rich yes "Tropical Trials at Innisfail, Queensland Oct 1955 - May 1956"
Vehicles involved Saracen, Ferret, Humber 1 Ton, Champ

As British Humbers go the last ones into service were mid 1955. The report refers to them as Humbers, but that may be a colloquialism for FV1601 as we know they were plated as Commers for you.

Might have a picture or two
Clive,

I think the Tropical Trials in Australia were done for the British Army as I have seen a report folder with photos, on the Leyland Martian done around the same time. When the Scorpion CVR(T) was on development they also took it to Queensland for the "hot" trials.
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  #306  
Old 26-01-11, 06:35
Richard Coutts-Smith Richard Coutts-Smith is offline
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Default The Humber in Australia

The January edition of the KVE Corowa Newsletter has a terrific article on the Humber trials in Australia. For historical posterity, here it is.

Quote:
KVE News Edition 8, January 2011 http://corowaswim-in.org

The Humber 1 ton CT Truck in Australia

By Paul Handel

Introduction

The Humber 1 ton CT Truck was probably one of the least auspicious vehicles to serve in the Australian Army. The original design concept, for a vehicle using specialised components to deliver outstanding cross-country performance, proved flawed, and the execution of the design concept was even more flawed.

This article will provide an insight into some of the trials of the vehicles which took place in Australia, and show some of the less than satisfactory results achieved. A short resume of its Australian service life will also be provided.

Concept

The Combat (CT) range of B vehicles was conceived in the UK during the late 1940s as "super" General Service (GS) vehicles. They were designed entirely for military purposes, with little use of standard automotive components, and that many of their specially de-signed parts were to be interchangeable. A range of ¼ ton, 1 ton, 3 ton 10 ton and 30 ton types were envisaged. The UK Fighting Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (FVRDE) was to be the design leaders. In the end, only ¼, 1 and 10 ton vehicles were pro-duced in any quantity. By 1951, however, the CT vehicle development was being questioned due to many design problems encountered.

The 1 ton range was known as the FV 1600 Series, and was developed from the original FVRDE concept by the Rootes Motor Group. Capital assistance was provided by the UK Government to Rootes in order to establish their production line. They were commonly known in Australia as "Humber 1 tonners".

Australian Trials

The Trials and Proving Wing (TPW) of the Technical Services Establishment (TSE) at Monegeetta in Victoria conducted trials of a "Truck, 1 ton, 4x4, CT" in 1954, along with an Austin Champ, the ¼ ton vehicle in the CT truck range. The test identification number was TI 1562, and the vehicle tested carried the Chassis number 6300001. This trial took place in Victoria and South Australia, and its aim was to test vehicles on terrain peculiar to Australia. The vehicle was loaded during the trials to a weight of 10920 pounds, not including the crew. A comparator vehicle, "Truck, 15cwt, 4x4, CVT", was loaded to 9744 pounds. This was a CMP vehicle from wartime production.

Trials conducted included high speed highway work in 100 miles non-stop running sections between Warrnambool and Whyalla. 1000 miles was done in these tests. A 50 mile gibber country drive around Port Augusta and a 200 mile drive on gravel roads in the Victorian mallee area gave the suspension a good workout. The Mallee provided an 800 mile test in dust whilst towing a laden 1 ton trailer. Other tests included the traverse of mud, sand and scrub. A total of 3430 miles were covered. The report discussed an element of vehicle cross country ability known as Mobiquity. Mobiquity was defined as the power of locomotion without using roads or other prepared surfaces. The Humber was described as lacking in mobiquity, and it showed no appreciable improvement over the performance of the Truck 15 cwt 4x4 GS CVT in tidal mud and sand.

Interestingly the 15 cwt 4x4 was itself described as notoriously lacking in such cross country performance. The Humber was noted as having poor self-recovery characteristics, as not only could it not reverse itself out of trouble, but the winch (a 2 ton single drum unit) kept tripping the overload switch which cut the engine ignition. Subsequent testing of the winch showed the overload was tripped at 34 cwt. There was no indication in the available documents on how to adjust the setting.

The tools provided in the vehicle kit were no suitable for normal maintenance – the first parade servicing (that normally done at the beginning of each day‟s operation) took one man hour. This would have been reduced if special tools were provided.

The design of the steel cargo body was also brought into question. It contributed to poor weight distribution, making the vehicle back heavy when loaded with the test payload.

A number of defects including gasket failure in the hub flange, oil loss in the Tracta joints and subsequent overfill in the axles, and excessive tyre wear were noted. The repair of the Tracta joints under field condition was considered to be difficult, given the need for scrupulous cleanliness.

The ride quality, however, was judged as outstanding because of the independent four wheel torsion bar suspension, especially at speed over second class roads. This was over-shadowed by the passenger‟s seat being cramped for long distance travelling, and the floor under the passenger becoming overheated due to the exhaust position.

Trial results noted that the vehicle proved to be disappointing. Main problems included:

 Lack of torque in reverse gear.

 Poor distribution of the payload which produced light steering.

 Lack of passenger comfort.

 Position of the winch did not allow use if bogged in mud or sand.

Overall the initial cost increase over a GS vehicle produced limited advantages.

Tropical Trials

A significant Tropical Trial took place between October 1955 and May 1956, in which a Ferret Scout Car, Saracen Armoured Personnel Carrier and ¼ and 1 ton CT vehicles participated. Interestingly, the Australian Army lists show that a total of 153 1 ton CT vehicles were purchased in 1955, so the outcome of the trials was unable to influence the purchase that had already been made.

It was noted that the Humber vehicle arrived late for the trial, and had numerous defects even though it was a new vehicle. The report stated that it gave the impression of little maintenance being carried out prior to our receipt. The vehicle came with no CES, no spares and no technical data.

The main problem during the tropical trials was that the engine had heavy oil consumption. The trials personnel had difficulty in achieving the required mileage target due to the con-stant need for repairs or waiting for spares to arrive. The main point noted was that the old engine assembly was stripped down for an examination, but one does not expect in field working conditions to be dismantling a Rolls Royce power unit. No matter how careful a tradesman is in protecting against dust and rain, the protection level was only 20%.

The vehicle covered 2000 miles of which 1500 were on hard roads, 400 were in jungle and 100 on soft going. A majority of miles were done loaded or towing a trailer of total weight 1 ton 14 cwt.

A summary of trials results for the tropical trials was not available to the author.

Australian Service Use

As noted above, 153 Humber 1 ton trucks entered Australian Army service beginning in 1955. The vehicle ID plates carried the nomenclature Commer, not Humber, and it is be-lieved that this is due to identification of export vehicles. Humber and Commer were both part of the Rootes Group. The vehicles were always known as Humbers in Australian service.

The vehicles were given Army Registration Numbers (ARNs) from 105671 to 105823. Interestingly, numbers 105671, 672 and 673, have no details of engine or chassis numbers listed in the Registration book examined by the author in Melbourne some 25 years ago when assisting an overseas researcher. Perhaps the vehicles were the original trials vehicles, although the ones shown in some trials photos shown Commonwealth (C) registrations rather than Army registrations.

The Chassis Numbers noted are all in the series beginning 6310001 with 6310150 being the highest number noted. The chassis numbers are not sequential with the registration numbers.

The original issue of the Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Instructions (Aust) (EMEIs) Data Summary is dated October 1958 and gives the nomenclature as Trucks 1 Ton CT, Humber, Mk1 (Census Code No. 6041). The Data Summaries for those vehicles fitted with radios are dated August 1962, and show the nomenclature as Truck, ¾ Ton, Cargo, CT,

Humber (FFR) Fitted with Radio Set xxx. The author has no explanation for this change in load capacity of the vehicle.

The vehicles saw service mainly with armoured regiments, both Regular and Citizen Military Forces (CMF). This was probably due to the commonality of engines with the Ferret Scout Car family with which most CMF armoured units were equipped. At least one unit, 12/16 Hunter River Lancers were issued these vehicles as substitute armoured personnel carriers, although they were never armoured in Australian service.

The vehicles were able to be fitted with a number of radio installations of the period. The radios were mounted in the cargo body, usually on a wooden table mounted at the cab end of the body. Underneath were four 75 Ah batteries which could be charged from the vehicle engine or by a charging set when stationary. Pole aerials for static use were also provided.

Their total service life in Australia was not long, as most were disposed of between 1967 to 1969.

Conclusion

This article represents but a small part of the story of the Humber 1 ton truck in Australian service. It is not meant to be the complete story but merely an overview of some of the tri-als and tests.

The Humber 1 ton truck was too complicated for normal service use, and offered few advantages over the normal GS vehicle for substantially increased costs. Whilst its ride was excellent on poor roads this did not compensate for its overall disappointment to soldiers and its high maintenance liability was a drain on the limited resources at unit level.

Acknowledgements

Some of the Test Instructions for the Trials and Proving Wing are to be found in the National Archives of Australia. A small number of EMEIs (mainly data sheets) have been saved from destruction by the author throughout his military career and these have proved invaluable references. Photographs come from the collections of the late Laurie Wright, Barry Marriott and the author.

Note

Imperial units have been used in this article rather than metric equivalents as they reflect the details contained in the reference material of the time.

Author

The author has been researching Australian armoured vehicles for almost 50 years. As their story is inevitably linked to Australian Army B vehicles (trucks), some information on these equipments has also been amassed. The author is currently posted as the Manager of the Australian Army Tank Museum.

Paul Handel

KVE News Edition 8, January 2011 http://corowaswim-in.org
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Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 26-01-11 at 09:12. Reason: formatting
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  #307  
Old 29-01-11, 11:27
Richard Coutts-Smith Richard Coutts-Smith is offline
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This Humber won the Sponsors Choice Award at a Grampians Show and Shine yesterday.
It will also be the "Mothership" for the next Champ Camp, Tasmania, in April.
Rich.
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P1010416.jpg  
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  #308  
Old 29-01-11, 11:38
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Is it one of Russells? I see the 'Mongrel' in the background.
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  #309  
Old 29-01-11, 12:20
Richard Coutts-Smith Richard Coutts-Smith is offline
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Well Rick,
its either Wally's or Russell's, or Wally's and Russells. Can't keep track.
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  #310  
Old 13-02-11, 03:02
Richard Coutts-Smith Richard Coutts-Smith is offline
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Humber on the move.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRjL4RJvE5o
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  #311  
Old 13-02-11, 10:47
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That's super Richard thank you for posting that, looks great fun. Makes one proud to own a Humber. I had already found the shorter 'puddle' clip a few days ago.

I have a little clip I must post up I took a few days. It it was the FV1622 Missile Test Truck being fired up after 10+ years lying idol. I only drove it a few feet, but none the less it was exciting just to hear it breathing again.

I meant to say thank you for posting the trials report article. That was very useful from Paul Handel who had researched it well. I have a few photos of the trials I must post up to go with it.

I wonder if any of our Canadian friends have any info on the cold weather Humber trials conducted over there?
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  #312  
Old 13-02-11, 11:22
Richard Coutts-Smith Richard Coutts-Smith is offline
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Thanks Clive,
Please post what you have, YouTube is definatley in need of Humber movies!
Love to see the photos of the trials, Paul did have some which were in the original article, one showing a snorkel fitted, another showing the railway gauge to see how big the vehicle was.
Rich.

Found the link to the newsletter with the photos
http://corowaswim-in.org/docs/Corowa...ary%202011.pdf
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  #313  
Old 13-02-11, 23:05
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Something to be going on with.

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  #314  
Old 14-02-11, 21:36
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Might not seem very dramatic, but after being idle for well over 10 years it was nice to hear the B60 come to life. But this I believe is the only surviving FV1622 of 8 produced. I know the Test Troop Sgt who used this very vehicle 18 BK 91 in Cylcops Sqn 2 RTR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1aLZbHSsv8

There are few other Humber clips of mine there.
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  #315  
Old 15-02-11, 05:43
Richard Coutts-Smith Richard Coutts-Smith is offline
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Thanks Clive.
Surprising how much better the B60 sounds than the B40, gets a real note to it.
Must be terrific to have that historical contact.
Rich.
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  #316  
Old 15-02-11, 12:48
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Rich it can sound nice. Even one of those clips I put on youtube doesn't sound too bad running just of the first 3 cylinders!

On another forum someone asked my what a FV1622 actually was.

It may outwardly look like a normal GS but it is a Power Supply, Electrical & Pneumatic, Truck Mounted, Malkara, 1 Ton, Humber FV1622

It went into service in Jan 1963 with the Missile Test Troop, Cyclops Sqn 2 RTR. Here is that very same vehicle at Kandahar Barracks at about that time. I have just sent the clip to the Missile Test troop Sgt who used this very vehicle.



It has a governed engine & its most obvious feature was a compressor to run up the gyros when testing the Malkara ATGW centre bodies that were accommodated in the Test Equipment, Guided Missile, Trailer Mounted, Malkara, 1/2 Ton, 2W, Sankey FV2308R which was towed behind it.

I was told by the EME that the bottom line was in the event of a catastrophe with a Hornet engine then the FV1622 would have to be a donor.
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  #317  
Old 16-02-11, 05:40
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Clive, I will be very dissapointed in you, if you do not have the trailer to match.
Can you tell me what the tyre pressure on the mudgaurd is?
Rich.
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  #318  
Old 16-02-11, 11:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Coutts-Smith View Post
Clive, I will be very dissapointed in you, if you do not have the trailer to match.
Richard, I'm very disappointed as well! Enquiries over the years have led me to believe these 8 trailers ended up at Jacksons of Bawtry. Here trailers were found with unknown electrical fittings which were ripped out so the trailers themselves could be sold. I imagine the trailers had done very little mileage & being prestige items would have been well maintained.

I was at War & Peace a few years ago & rather unusually found myself looking at a stall with mostly WW2 memrobelia. In a pile of old newspapers I found a mint copy of the full parts book for the FV2308(R). There can't have been many of those printed.

I have been in contact with the man who drove back this FV1622 from the Ruddington sales. It was selected as it stood out as a well maintained vehicle which was used very little. It was complete with compressor, alternator & all the fittings in the rear. Yes & you know what's coming, if you don't know what it is you rip it out & throw it away.



Quote:
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Can you tell me what the tyre pressure on the mudgaurd is?
Rich.


I think that reads TP 36, which is about right. I only have the Servicing Schedules for Pig Mk 1 & Mk 2. But I have a SEME training publication of 1953 that gives the figures for the CT as

Road
Front 35
Rear 65

Cross Country
Front 14
Rear 45

However the Commer FV1601 book states

Road
Front 27
Rear 65

Cross Country
Front 25
Rear 45

All depends whether you have a Humber or a Commer I suppose
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  #319  
Old 17-02-11, 10:40
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Thanks for the pressures Clive, could not find them in the User Manual. Makes a big difference in the Champ. Imagine it will do so on the Humber as well.
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  #320  
Old 17-02-11, 10:52
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Rich yes its frustrating not having the pressures in the User Handbook. I suppose the Army like to keep that info separately in the Servicing Schedule along with POLs as these things may change from time to time & reprinting a publication of 2 or 3 pages can be done more easily. Although the Commer book being a civilian publication, has all the info together.

Here is a bit info on the FV1622 in service

http://hmvf.co.uk/pdf/MISSILE%20TESTING%20HUMBER.pdf
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Old 17-02-11, 11:03
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You really need to find some more copies of the Commer book....
Thanks for the extra reading, looking forward to it.
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  #322  
Old 11-03-11, 23:03
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Clive I feel it only appropriate to show the clip of this rare MV being loaded onto the transport to take to her new home and a new life.

Like a phoenix from the ashes, that giving the previous owner and Humbers is quite symbolic to say the least.

It would be something to see that one at War & Peace wining the award in years to come. Do you agree?

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  #323  
Old 12-03-11, 00:23
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First attempt to extract!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xig-35fQSYk
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  #324  
Old 12-03-11, 02:06
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Hi Clive

Enjoyed the read about the Humber manual, snip its of different military vehicles are interesting to read and point out details that you have not seen before.

Got a kick out of the video of backing the Humber into the garage always a challenge big truck into small door way. After hooking the door casing on the barn door with one of the lift hooks on my radio box, I borrowed a fire house trick of painting lines on the floor which guarantee truck is centered in the door and as long as noting is left inside the box you don't hit anything.

Even with the small military mirrors it is just a matter of lining the rear tire up down the inside of orange paint line and backing in. The cross lines are for wheel chocks for the different trucks.

PS the truck won the argument with the barn scratched the paint on the lift hook and tore the door casing right off the barn.

Cheers
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  #325  
Old 12-03-11, 22:05
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Phil, I'm glad you could sympathise with exercise. It was a bit nerve racking as you can appreciate.

When it was driven in 10-15 years ago it went in forwards but the extraction was complicated as a lot of shelves & racks have since appeared. Yes the small mirrors have limitations & only one could be positioned to be functional.

The tilt frame was too high, so we lowered that & got it halfway through the garage then hit a beam. So out it came again & the frame was removed completely. I suppose if that was not enough the next step would have been to wind down the torsion bars & pretend we were loading it into a Beverley. That would have dropped about 4" in height.

The FV1601 that followed was easier as it was facing forwards & there was no body!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXeDOkJ_PU4
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  #326  
Old 13-03-11, 05:21
Richard Coutts-Smith Richard Coutts-Smith is offline
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Yup, That is a tight fit. Vision down the left side being next to non existant thanks to the spare wheel bulge, no wonder you had a few helpers. I take it the brakes are a little on the doubtful side as well. Is it the accoustics? Sounds like a diesal under the bonnets.
Well done.
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  #327  
Old 13-03-11, 22:29
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Rich, yes you are right about the rear vision, that darned spare wheel!

Well there were no brakes, the servo was in the floor of the cab. Your hearing is good, what you can hear is a Massey-Ferguson at the other end of the bar at the rear!

Although the FV1622 engine does run, it has to be drip fed. The bar was not just the traction but the braking. I had not tried the FV1601 engine but that at least was facing the correct way round.
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  #328  
Old 15-03-11, 21:59
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Great viewing. Thanks for sharing the clips Clive.
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  #329  
Old 07-05-11, 05:08
Richard Coutts-Smith Richard Coutts-Smith is offline
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Humber getting the Welly off-road UK style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtHYl5G_n1s

Rich.
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  #330  
Old 12-05-11, 11:30
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fv1620 fv1620 is offline
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Rich thank you that's a nice clip. I did once see that Humber itself just static at a show, nice to see it doing what its meant to.
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