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  #31  
Old 28-09-15, 22:18
Jack Innes Jack Innes is offline
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From the Ontario Highway Traffic Act;

You need to display a slow-moving vehicle sign if your vehicle is not capable of reaching and sustaining a speed greater than 40 km/hour.

Vehicles that need a slow-moving vehicle sign include:
•construction equipment
•farm equipment
•street sweepers
•fork lifts
•low-speed vehicles


My carrier is CAPABLE of reaching & sustaining 40 km/hr (24.85 mph) so, by the act it does not require a slow moving triangle. 40 km/hr might not be wise on a paved road but wisdom rarely creeps in to the statement of the law!
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  #32  
Old 29-09-15, 00:26
Terry Witiuk Terry Witiuk is offline
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Default Historic Vehicle Plates and input from the OMVA

Aside from there being a scheduled OMVA Fall Swap Meet, as of right now I think there is no longer a functioning OMVA that can offer any help with this issue or concern.
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  #33  
Old 29-09-15, 13:43
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Lightbulb Golly gosh, no one told me....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Gray View Post
One interesting anecdote. Coming back from Campbellford Legion Anniversary one Sunday morning, 8:30 a.m., maniac cop stopped the Bren Carrier. We were fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Gray View Post
But, as pointed out previously in this thread, our Bren Carrier was ticketed and fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle, though we were not told it was required, or is it, when Historic Vehicle plates were issued us.
Mike, just for clarification..... in Ontario the requirement for the Slow Moving Triangle is not a requirement just for Historic Vehicle Plates.

This is in the Ontario Driver's Handbook

Ref: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...ion3.1.6.shtml

... "The “slow-moving vehicle” sign is an orange triangle with a red border. It alerts other drivers that the vehicle ahead will be travelling at 40 km/h or less. When on a road, farm tractors, farm implements/machinery, and vehicles not capable of sustaining speeds over 40 km/h must display the slow moving vehicle sign. Watch for these slow moving vehicles and reduce your speed as necessary. .....




In jurisprudence, ignorance of the law is not a defence. In the case of everyone with a valid drivers license, it is assumed that they are aware of the rules and regulations, and take all appropriate safety steps.

I would consider it prudent to put a "Slow Moving Vehicle" sign on the rear of a Bren carrier on any public highway. When you arrive at your destination, for display, you could then remove the sign.

What most folks do not understand, is when there is an official "parade", approved by the local competent authorities, the Highway Traffic Act is temporarily suspended on the designated section of the parade route, once the barricades are put up. That is why during a parade, a Shriner can drive a little motorcycle that looks like an airplane....

There are still other complications, such as additional municipal regulations. For example in Ottawa, anything with tracks (Bren Carrier) requires an additional permit ($$$) to drive on city streets. This is aimed at the owners of cranes and construction equipment who can cause damage to roads.

There are lots of fine (no pun intended) details when organizing such events.

With all due respect, I think the peace officer was well within his duties to issue a ticket. It was an unsafe condition.

I would hope that you always carry a break down kit with reflectors and flares.
It would not be unusual for a Bren Carrier to stop dead in it's track, and there is no way you are going to be able to push it off to the side. That much steel sitting on a highway would present a significant risk to any vehicle who slams into it.

I have a nice DND issue and German issue breakdown kit that I carry for just that purpose. Similar commercial units are available at Canadian Tire, Princess Auto, and most truck stop shops.

Stuart
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  #34  
Old 29-09-15, 18:17
Gordon Yeo Gordon Yeo is offline
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Default SMV signs

Just because you put a slow moving vehicle ( SMV ) sign on a vehicle doesn't absolve you of all fault if your in an accident. The SMV sign, in agricultural use, is used on vehicles of husbandry. That way when some bright light comes out from the towns and cities going 100 km and hits a farm vehicle there is a system set up for the consequences. Farm liability insurance is applied to the listed vehicles on the policy and there are some limitations. So, technically our farm equipment is insured like a truck or car.

Having been ticketed for no SMV on a carrier may be your best out come in that situation. A more in depth questioning, by a maniac cop, might have lead to discovering an unlicensed vehicle with no insurance.

When you go to the OMVA swap meet this fall it will look like a senior citizens outing, I know because I am one. A hand full of the same people have carried the organization for the last many years and they are tired of the job. There are very few young guys coming into the hobby and no one wants to take on the jobs of running the organization. Being a small far flung group of collectors maybe we should join local car clubs and fall under their organization for historic vehicle "protection". If we go to some none club event we should ask for a letter of invitation to parades and shows. That should provide proof conforming to the HVP requirements. Most local car clubs have a spring "roll out" and vehicles can be inspected for defects. These are the sort of things that the HV plate let older vehicle owners keep their vehicles on the road with some sort of over site without being costly.

I don't think that most people with a historic plated car are as annal about conforming to the rules as the thread seems. If you walk around and look at vintage vehicles, on the streets in the summer, there are many vehicles that are not being driven to the letter of the law.

It may be that the historic vehicle plate was designed and implemented with the input and co-operation of the many car clubs that try and keep vintage vehicles operating safely. I don't think that every cop on every corner is looking to jack up every HV plated vehicle, unless the driver is outside the usual traffic act laws.
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  #35  
Old 30-09-15, 01:46
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I 100% agree with Mr Yeo, as I am also a farmer.

The SMV sign is not for your carrier just as he said.

Robin
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  #36  
Old 30-09-15, 02:08
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default Slow Moving Sign

From the MTO


...."A slow-moving vehicle (SMV) sign warns other road users that your vehicle is moving at 40 km/hour or less. Find out if you need one and how to display it on your vehicle......"



Vehicles that need a slow-moving vehicle sign

You need to display a slow-moving vehicle sign if your vehicle is not capable of reaching and sustaining a speed greater than 40 km/hour.

Vehicles that need a slow-moving vehicle sign include:
•construction equipment
farm equipment
•street sweepers
•fork lifts
low-speed vehicles

If your slow-moving vehicle is towing something, you need to display the sign at the rear of the object being towed.

Vehicles that do not need a slow-moving vehicle sign

You do not need a slow-moving vehicle sign for:
•bicycles
•mopeds
•disabled vehicles being towed
•vehicles directly crossing a road, as when a farm tractor crosses a road to move from one field to another
•horse-drawn vehicles driven by people whose religious beliefs do not permit them to use the sign. Instead, the back of the carriage must be outlined with reflective tape visible from at least 150 meters (approximately 500 ft).

Slow-moving vehicle signs are for vehicles only. You can't use them on fixed objects like mailboxes or driveway markers if they can be seen from the road.

Property owners or tenants displaying a slow-moving vehicle sign on fixed objects may be subject to a fine.

Placing a slow-moving vehicle sign

The sign should be placed on the rear of the vehicle between 0.6 meters (2 ft.) and 2 meters (6 ft.) above the roadway. It should be centred from left to right as much as possible.

Ref: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/veh...cle-sign.shtml


Robin, you may be a part time farmer, as is Gordon, that is true. It is not true that the Slow Moving Sign is for exclusive use of farmers (agriculture community). It may be used most often by farmers, as it should as they pull hay bails on trailers using agro trailers that weave in and out as they move-about.

it is for....

Vehicles that need a slow-moving vehicle sign include:
construction equipment
•farm equipment
•street sweepers
•fork lifts
•low-speed vehicles


Cheers!
Stuart
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  #37  
Old 30-09-15, 02:18
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chris vickery chris vickery is offline
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BUT... it does not replace Provincially required license plates and insurance as some users deem.
Period
Farmers and construction firms have insurance policies in effect which cover them which are outside of what most of us aquire for vehicles registered under the HTA.
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  #38  
Old 30-09-15, 02:19
Gordon Yeo Gordon Yeo is offline
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Default SMV signs

Stuart
My point about agricultural use of a SMV sign was that the farm liability policy covers our machinery with insurance. Putting a slow moving vehicle sign on any vehicle may not automatically provide insurance coverage in an accident. Fast or slow is a vehicle on a public road not supposed to be insured?

Gordon
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  #39  
Old 30-09-15, 02:28
Phil Waterman Phil Waterman is offline
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Default Bright Orange Panel 2x6

My solution to slower than flow of traffic. Is an international orange, air requisition panel covering the tailgate, at least if they run in to the truck they look stupid if the say they didn’t see the truck.

Notice that I said “slower than flow of traffic” one of the problems I encounter is traffic that is as much as 20 MPH over the posted speed. So even if you can do the speed limit there can be a problem.

I have really enjoyed reading this thread and similar threads concerning other locations. Seems that a jumble of rules from Province to Province, State to State and Country to Country is pretty much normal. One of the problems which I suspect is a constant underlying problem concerning antique vehicles is the lack of knowledge of the average officer trying to enforce laws. They just don’t have to deal with antique vehicle laws that often.

Every time they change the laws concerning antique vehicles in my home state there are a spat of problems experience by club members. The more the antique vehicle rules are different from the norm the more common the problem. Examples having inspection month different from registration month and then doing away with inspections for Antique plates older than a certain age. I’m still getting stopped for that one every now and then. Never tell the officer he is wrong, instead ask it as a question, Oh this is a 1945 and isn’t that covered by vehicles built before 1949 don’t have to be inspected?

As a good thought provoking thread

Cheers Phil
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  #40  
Old 30-09-15, 02:31
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default SMV sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Yeo View Post
Stuart
My point about agricultural use of a SMV sign was that the farm liability policy covers our machinery with insurance. Putting a slow moving vehicle sign on any vehicle may not automatically provide insurance coverage in an accident. Fast or slow is a vehicle on a public road not supposed to be insured?

Gordon
Of course, a fast or slow vehicle on a public road is supposed to be insured. If the Bren Carrier in question was driving on a public highway without insurance and registration, then he deserves far worse than a ticket for the lack of a SMV sign. A Bren carrier can be on a public road without registration and insurance, if and only if, the public road has been declared a "Parade" by the local competent authority. This is also dependent on the local municipality, and I gave the example of Ottawa, that requires another fee for tracked vehicles.

Just a reminder, this thread started out about a Licensed and registered vehicle and the difference between a standard license plate and a "Historic Vehicle" plate. Both of those plates require insurance, registration and a vehicle has passed a safety at some point of time.

Just saying, that if you have a licensed and registered vehicle of any sort, that can not keep up with 40 km/hr, it should have the SMV.

The OP can comment if his Bren Carrier was actually licensed and insured at the time, and what plates (if any) it had. If he was not licensed and insured at the time (I have no idea if this is even possible for a Bren carrier in Ontario), then he deserved some sort of ticket and fine.

Stuart

Last edited by Stuart Fedak; 30-09-15 at 03:32. Reason: typo, as always
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  #41  
Old 30-09-15, 02:39
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default OMVA and co-ordinnation of events

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris vickery View Post
BUT... it does not replace Provincially required license plates and insurance as some users deem.
Period
Farmers and construction firms have insurance policies in effect which cover them which are outside of what most of us aquire for vehicles registered under the HTA.
Quote:
3RD Echelon Wksp

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Chris, nice to hear from you. As the OMVA rep, what was/is the position of OMVA working with the insurance industry and MTO on the issue of "Historic Vehicles" and co-ordinating events?

Cheers!
Stuart
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  #42  
Old 30-09-15, 03:19
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chris vickery chris vickery is offline
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Other than being an area rep for the Club, I am no longer sitting President of the Club.
Please refer your queries to the current OMVA Executive.
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1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
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RT-524, PRC-77s,
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  #43  
Old 30-09-15, 19:04
Eric B Eric B is offline
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Default Ontario licencing

Hello

Its nice to see a discussion about plates etc.

There are lots of good points brought up.

If you want to read the actual law it can be found on e-laws Ontario under the Highway Traffic Act.

I have "Year or Manufacture" (YOM) plates on my WW2 Jeep. (These are original Ontario issue licence plates issued the year of the manufactured date of the vehicle) The vehicle must meet the classification of an Historic vehicle but the plates permit me to do anything as they are a regular plates. You can still get Historical vehicle insurance, which will create conditions to taking the vehicle out.

Historic plates create limitations on the use of the vehicle (not for everyday use) but you have a reduced registration fee.

The OMVA and other auto clubs were part of the Ontario Specialty Car Association when a joint submission was made to obtain Historic plates and later Year of Manufacture plates.

Year of manufacture plates are still not permitted on trailers... I know as I tried.

The clubs are encouraged to do their own policing and to make sure their members follow the rules, which we pushed for. I.e not putting historic or YOM plates on a modified vehicle (eg. hot rod) (which is not a historic vehicle). Not putting YOM plates as decoration on a vehicle which already has a valid licence plate attached etc.

Violating the historic or YOM plates usage actually does discredit to the clubs that fought to get them for members. (They also have consequences if stopped by the police, charges of misuse of plate, plates seized, vehicle towed etc.)

CFR, DND, WD numbers will never be permitted as they were never as an Ontario vehicle registration. When required DND used Ontario issued licence plates prior to the DND plates.
You need to mail in the original plates for verification prior to MTO approving it.

If you want to use a WD/ DND number you can buy the vanity plates with that number ... but the issued plates must be attached to the vehicle. Painting it on the vehicle will not be accepted.

Those with vehicles that are not plated such as carriers drive on the road at their own peril. They are not deemed as construction equipment, implement of husbandry etc., so
they also do not meet the criteria for plates, or vehicle insurance.

If caught on the road outside of an official parade, the driver/owner could be charged with no plates ($110.00) , no insurance (minimum of $3,000.00 fine) and incur a tow fee amongst other things.

If involved in a collision then civil action can also take place by the other party or those injured. You won't have a leg to stand on.

just my feedback and reinforcement of comments made by a few others in earlier posts.

thanks

Eric
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  #44  
Old 18-12-15, 00:05
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Greg,

You obviously can't be a bad guy as you are into Land Rovers like myself.Can you PM or email me please?

I am insured through Lant and their policy but I have regular plates.

I recently had an OPP officer talk to a bunch of farmers at a farm related event, real nice guy and really knew his HTA and the various over riding clauses and sections.

Eric B you would have enjoyed him.

Robin
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  #45  
Old 18-12-15, 17:37
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Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
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Got the PM Greg
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  #46  
Old 18-12-15, 21:52
Mike Gray Mike Gray is offline
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Default Historic Vehicle Plates

Well, I have been associated with many friends who own and operate vintage and classic cars. Most have historic vehicle plates on their vehicles, but not all.
They rally at local Tim's or A&W and go out for a 'toot' and a tour.
However, for us MV owners that is not really something we do just on a regular basis, going out for an organized 'toot'. Parades and events are mostly what we do I believe. Historic vehicle plates have lowered my overhead, yes, but then again we don't go swanning off with one of our MV's for a leisurely drive through the countryside on a beautiful September Sunday morning either.
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  #47  
Old 19-12-15, 15:22
david moore david moore is offline
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Default HV plate - no choice with '42 jeep?

My two cents worth on the original question of HV plate or not.........my understanding is that a regular plate in Ontario requires seat belts and flashing indicators to name but two requirements. Neither are fitted to a '42 jeep so no choice? Anyway, if you only drive about 100 miles a year, $100 insurance versus $500 seems to make sense.
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  #48  
Old 19-12-15, 16:25
Jack Innes Jack Innes is offline
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David,

A motor vehicle in Ontario needs to have the lights & equipment that it was built with to pass the safety inspection needed to obtain plates.

If something safety related is added it needs to be in working condition.
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  #49  
Old 19-12-15, 17:24
david moore david moore is offline
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Default Plates

Yes, but you need to pass the safety anyway even to get historic plates - I was talking about getting regular plates.
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  #50  
Old 19-12-15, 20:22
Jack Innes Jack Innes is offline
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David,

I was talking about any plates as well.

Here is a quote from the MOT site regarding seat belts;

"No seatbelts needed

Seatbelts are not required in the following vehicles:
•buses (including school buses)
•other large commercial vehicles (over 4,536 kg) that don't require seatbelts to be installed in rear seating positions at the time of manufacture
•vehicles that were manufactured in or imported into Canada before January 1, 1974
•vehicles manufactured without seatbelt assemblies for each seating position"


Turn signals, air bags, 5 mph bumpers, etc. are treated similarly with regard to plating a vehicle in general.

The Ontario Safety Standards Certificate - (form 5) makes no mention of what class of plate that can be issued for the vehicle.
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  #51  
Old 20-12-15, 01:09
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David,

the words "not fitted at time of manufacture" is all that needs to be satisfied.

I agree with Jack's post and infact have gone through the circus when a testing mechanic does not know the rules.

There are times when I have been wrong, once was when I had to fit a windshield and wipers and wash bottle to pass a safety. Remember there is no requirement to operate with that windshield only to have it at the time of the safety.

It is a bit of a jungle out there.

A number of the Land Rovers I register have no reversing light fitted at time of manufacture.
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  #52  
Old 20-12-15, 01:19
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Just as a warning, anyone needing a safety in Ontario should get it done at the earliest opportunity. There are new, much more stringent regulations coming in to effect in July.
Barry
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  #53  
Old 20-12-15, 02:48
Grant Bowker Grant Bowker is offline
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Thank you for the warning Barry.
Without going into nauseating detail, can you give an idea of the types of changes we can anticipate? And, do you know of a web link we can go to in order to educate ourselves?
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  #54  
Old 20-12-15, 14:46
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Barry Churcher Barry Churcher is offline
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Grant, Janet says I go into nauseating detail every time I tell a story. If you go to the link below and scroll half way down the page you will see "Summary of Changes Effective July 1, 2016". That will give you a quickie on some of the changes. Dirty battery cables is one where we will get grief from customers. We have people who argue about a tire that is so thin we can see the air in it. A mandatory road test will be difficult in an uninsured, unplated vehicle. Previous we could do it in our driveway. We must record and provide the customer with tread depth measurements and brake component measurements, including the emergency brake. Extra costs with drum emergency brakes. There will be problems with the vehicles with the emergency shoes that are inside the rotor. By the time I get the rusty old rotor hammered off the emergency brake falls out on the floor. I encourage my customers to bring in any potential purchase BEFORE buying,
for a free look over. It is amazing the number of vehicles we condemn without even getting up on a hoist. I think our biggest issue will be rusty brake lines. A judgement call at best but a mechanic was recently criminally charged after a vehicle was in an accident 30 days after the inspection. We are not allowed to hammer the brake pedal down. See Grant I am doing it again.
Cheers,
Barry

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/tru...ons.shtml#form


View the draft proposed changes here. This will likely be the new standaeds.
http://www.ontariocanada.com/registr...chmentId=27411

Last edited by Barry Churcher; 20-12-15 at 15:17.
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  #55  
Old 20-12-15, 15:58
rob love rob love is offline
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I have heard complaint from a mechanic here in Manitoba that the inspections do miss some safety related items. For instance, an automatic transmission line that is badly leaking is not a safety issue by Manitoba inspection standards. I can assure you that it is when the fluid catches fire on the hot exhaust. He queried the inspection section of Manitoba and they told him it was not an issue for the inspection form, and there was nothing he could do.

We do not have the corrosion problems here in Manitoba that you guys out East have, so brake lines rusting through are not really an issue. But I can certainly understand why it would be in Southern Ontario.
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  #56  
Old 20-12-15, 15:59
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Churcher View Post
Grant, Janet says I go into nauseating detail every time I tell a story. If you go to the link below and scroll half way down the page you will see "Summary of Changes Effective July 1, 2016".

....

It is amazing the number of vehicles we condemn without even getting up on a hoist.

....
Barry

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/tru...ons.shtml#form

View the draft proposed changes here. This will likely be the new standaeds.
http://www.ontariocanada.com/registr...chmentId=27411
That is depressing! Got to love the thoughtful bureaucrats in this Nanny-State province. Anyone want to chime in on emissions testing?
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  #57  
Old 20-12-15, 16:25
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Guess this means guys level of restoration will just have to be stepped up a notch.
Do things right the first time and avoid issues.
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3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers
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  #58  
Old 20-12-15, 16:42
Robin Craig's Avatar
Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
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Location: Near Kingston, ON, Canada
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Frankly too many people run too many ropey pieces of junk on the road in this province and we are living in the dark ages with no yearly inspection.

Yes getting a Land Rover or Bedford truck parking brake measured will be a pain but it is for the good of all of our safety an those of our loved ones.

As long as this pendulum slows down and settles at a yearly inspection I am ok, but if we let the swing continue to the point the next door province does with bolting on extra retrofit gear then that is too far.

Of to continue building my garage and fume quietly in the corner over cheap MV owners, but that is another story, bah humbug!
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Robin Craig

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  #59  
Old 20-12-15, 17:22
chris vickery's Avatar
chris vickery chris vickery is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Nipissing Ontario Canada
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Robin you hit upon the point that I agree with concerning those who opt for putting junk on the road.
We have all seen low quality resto attempts or cobbled together pieces simply because the owners choose not to do what is right. There is too much "good enough" mentality out there. I would rather see enthusiasts take the time to make their rides mechanically sound than spend huge dollars tricking them out with fancy paint and tons of useless kit. At the end of the day some decent brakes are going to do a lot more than some cool gear hanging all over the place.
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3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers
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  #60  
Old 20-12-15, 18:20
Barry Churcher's Avatar
Barry Churcher Barry Churcher is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Castleton Ont.
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I take might out for a leisurely drive all the time !
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1957 Dutch DAF YA 314 Army truck , Dutch Army 1976 Progress AW 57/5 mobile field kitchen, 1981 immersion heater

Terry, as a word of caution, have you had your DAF weighed? I know my DAF tipper hovers very close to the magic 4500 kg number. How much does the kitchen trailer weigh? With Historic plates do you still need a yearly inspection if over 4500kg? My understanding is that you do need a yearly inspection (yellow sticker) although I haven't done one on my own truck but will when I decide to put it back on the road. I will also take it to the local landfill and get a weight slip so if ever stopped by the MTO I have some paperwork backup. The MTO guys don't know everything but if they think they are right you can't win. It's better to have back up readily at hand.
Cheers,
Barry
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