Humber FV1600

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Richard Coutts-Smith

Anyone know what the "61" on the door signifies?

Hi Rich,

The wading tank photo was taken at the Fighting Vehicle Research & Development Establishment, Chertsey, Surrey. The number 61 denotes the exhibit number in the guide book at one of the regular exhibitions of British military equipment at that site. I have recently written several articles with numerous photos of these exhibitions in the 50's and 60's in Vintage Roadscene magazine in the UK.

regards, Richard

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Richard, just checked my copy of the 1956 FVRDE Chertsey cat., and sure enough the Humber One Ton was indeed Exhibit No. 61. So I guess this photo can be narrowed down to sometime in 1956. Those exhibitions must have been really something to see.
Thanks for the heads up, I would never have made that link.
Rich.

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Attached is the Cat. info for Exhibit 61.
The Humber was obviously set up to drive fully submerged, must have been tested pretty thoroughly before hand for them to omit the tow rope that was usually fitted to the front tow eyes for these tests. Not sure I would like to buy this one second hand though...
The second prtotype, KYW 98, appears to have been scrapped in the 70's at Jacksons Scrapyard, the number plate was found and purchased at that time, and is now on a Garage wall.
Interestingly, exhibit #65 (for 1956), is still alive and well , and rarer than the Humber.
Rich.

[fv1620]

Originally Posted by Richard Coutts-Smith

As discussed earlier, the exhaust manifold on the Humber is problematic

I think we should all be impressed by the work involved in making this from a block of metal. Roger in Essex said he had to use every tool in his workshop to re-create this.

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Impressive indeed Clive. I assume Roger (from Essex) has made a few extra for Christmas presents. I am sure he had many hours of fun working this one out, although I am afraid that only the rare Humber owner would truly appreciate it.

On similar note, we had an aero parts guy making bits for WWII aircraft restorations, he would machine a replacement part out of a billet of aircraft grade aluminium, but would include the moulding marks present on the original cast part. He had some terrific CNC gear, even greater attention to detail.
Rich.

[fv1620]

I thought you'd like that Rich, I didn't ask if there was a FV number on it somewhere. Usual story though I think once he made it, a genuine one turned up.

Welding up a Pig is one thing but this restoration is out my league. He re-manufactured the rear body which is superb. It is a nice NOS canvas I know as I sold it to him last year.

I have watched this Humber for many years. For much of that time it was fitted incorrectly with a FV1604 body. He re-manufactured the rear body which is superb. In fact about 15 years ago it was owned by an Australian chap (Andrew Kemp) who was going to drive back home. Clearly the Humber never made it but I assume Andrew did as I've not heard of him since then.

Yes I remember his answering machine went something like "G'day I can't take your call at the moment, I'm out the back feeding a dead dog to the kangaroo"

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Clive, what happens when he finish's finding things to do on the old girl? Take it he will not be sitting back and resting on his laurels? I would have thought a project like that would have kept him occupied for years to come.
Great job.
Rich.

[fv1620]

Rich I sold him 2 more Humbers last year. One is beyond it but the other is the FV1622 Missile Test Truck that awaits restoration.

That particular one 18 BK 91 is the one that appears in the books. That was the one I put on YouTube getting it through the narrow garage.

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Been talking to another Aussy Humber owner who has a query:

"I suspect the valve guide seals on the vehicle are in poor shape. The Rolls manual on these engines seems to indicate that these are relatively easy to replace without removing the head. Are they rubber seals or something else?"


I note that the seal is referred to as an "0il Seal" in the workshop manual, and "Packing" in the spare parts book, and is on the inlet valve only?


It does appear (Rolls "B" Series Manual) that you can remove the inlet valve spring in situ, with the right tools to stop the valve dropping, but the Champ and Humber manuals both mention the oil seal replacement only with the head off.

Any one been down this path?
Rich.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Richard Coutts-Smith

Been talking to another Aussy Humber owner who has a query:

"I suspect the valve guide seals on the vehicle are in poor shape. The Rolls manual on these engines seems to indicate that these are relatively easy to replace without removing the head. Are they rubber seals or something else?"


I note that the seal is referred to as an "0il Seal" in the workshop manual, and "Packing" in the spare parts book, and is on the inlet valve only?


It does appear (Rolls "B" Series Manual) that you can remove the inlet valve spring in situ, with the right tools to stop the valve dropping, but the Champ and Humber manuals both mention the oil seal replacement only with the head off.

Any one been down this path?
Rich.

Hi Rich,
The inlet valve seals or packings are made of a compressed asbestos cord, an archaic design even in 1950's terms. Apparantly there are modern alternatives, which the RR car owners have come up with an alternative, made of a "rubber type" material with a wiper lip. Perkins diesels used these types, amongst other makes of course.
I have renewed seals on a B60 insitu ( in a Ferret), by using a special tool that locks the inlet valve in the closed position. there is another tool to compress the valve spring to release the collets. Only did the task this way, the once, for a private owner, about 15 years ago, when done in army service we had to lift the heads if I recollect, as that was their procedure, and I do not recall these specail tools being available.

Only fitted to inlet valves, not needed on exhaust valves.

regards, Richard

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Thanks Richard.
Will have to do a little research on the replacement seal. The Rolls Manual shows a drawing of the special tools, obviously the military decided it was less risky to remove the head.
Rich.

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

I have finally identified this bracket as being for a crowbar. The Humber CES I have seen does not list a crowbar, and I have not been able to find a pic of one stowed in any photos. It appears that this is only found on the FFW version, not the Cargo. It also seems that all Aussie Humbers have the FFW body, although only 14 were used as such. Given this FFW connection, what sort of crowbar would be applicable?
I have been using the brakets for storing part of the canopy frame because they fit so well, according to the (not always correct) spare's manual) I am wrong.
Any ideas?
Rich.

[fv1620]

Rich could it be for an earth spike and sledge hammer?

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

G'Day Clive.
I know the radio body has a sledge hammer mounted next to the pick helve, but in this case I can only go by the number stamped on the brackets at each end: FV228904 Bracket, Stop, Crowbar.
Rich.

[fv1620]

Oh well Rich that really defines it. I can't find any in-service pictures with a crow bar, nor can I find any reference in the Commer handbook nor in the 1962 CES in Army Code 33577.

I just wonder whether the crow bar was part of the original kit when it was a Truck CT. But when about £250 was saved per vehicle by doing away with fancy bits to designate it as a Truck GS, that the crow bar was discontinued?

Although why a FFW needed a crow bar I have no idea.

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

The Commer book let you down??
I think you are 100% correct about it being cut. One mention in everything I have read does not seem right. The main holding brackets, in from each end, have been drilled for a rivet, possibly to fasten a buffer of some sort? but have never seen anything actually fitted.
As always, thanks for the help
Rich.

[fv1620]

Rich unfortunately of the FVRDE Design Specs I have for Humbers I do not have the FV1602 one.

But I do have the WO Spec for FV1606 dated March 1950. Amongst the many tools carried it includes:

Bar Crow 4' 1"

So would that be the right length? I have a number of VAOS for MT tools but none of them include any sort of crow bar.

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Nope, length would be 3 1/2 ft.
I can only assume it may be for lifting earth stakes or something to do with the FFW as it is too short for earth works. If I knew what shape it was that would give some indication as to its purpose.
Rich.

[Ron King]

[Ron King]

Originally Posted by Richard Coutts-Smith

Glad you enjoyed it Clive.
I also have some Humber Off Road Aussie Style footage from the "80's" (Going by the hair styles), but it will take some major editing to put it on You Tube. Should be worth the wait though....
Rich.

I wouldn't mine betting it is super 8 footage taken in 1978 taken by my mother
AMVCS club runs ??????? and some private stuff.

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Hi Ron, like the kid hanging out of the back of the Humber to see how deep it's getting.

If you were refering to the youtube link of the Humber I posted as possibly being via your mum, I woiuld doubt it unless unless her name was Wally and came from Stawell.

How is the Stalwart going?
Rich.

[Ron King]

The kid hanging out the back is a fellow you may know called Bruce Mc XXXX
There is a lot of early AMVCS footage going around the place now.
That Humber fording the flooded river is the one also shown I think in the first page of this thread with Bruce and his sister hanging out of It.( I took the pic with a box brownie camera AMVCS winter rallie ...1978)

That Humber was saved and restored by my father.
It had cancer in the battery box and normal places and required a bit of TLC to bring it back to life.
My father sold it on to Bruces father as he found a dodge M37 to restore.
The M37 is still kicking around and kicked off Bruces interest in them.
The Stalwart is coming along very slowly as I have plenty of other things going on.
The stalwart story has a large following on this thread.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/101-forwar...timate-fc.html
Some more pics of the same crossing.....check out the champ with snorkell




Regards Ron

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Shame the pics are a bit on the faded side Ron, thats a pretty good cross section of vehicles to have on a run though.
Wise move to have the snorkel up on the Champ, in the down position it sucks up the bow wave on anything above shallow. Which means an engine and fuel tank full of water. Talk about learning the hard way.....
You have probably seen this clip, Stalwart vs Humber, makes it clear why only one of them was regarded as High Mobility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk5m4T7gM1I
Rich.

[fv1620]

If I read it correctly it looks like 16 BK 39 sold off in 1964 for £140. It must have been a good one because it sold for double what most of them were going for at the time.

Not seen it in recent years, so perhaps its not a survivor.

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Couple of Humber questions that I need some help with.
1/ Bottom Pic.
There are two hinged brackets that sit on the lower section of the storage rack (Part no. FV228911) that do not appear in the parts cat., drivers manual or mechanical manuals. They have had a strap riveted to them, now rotted off. The parts book mentions 2 straps 17 1/4in. long for this area. I have always assumed that this strap was used in conjunction with the mystery brackets to either hold down the canvas frame tubes, or for storage of the canvas cover itself. However, the length of the straps would appear to be too short, and the absence of the bracket in the parts book makes me wonder if this part has not been nicked from something else, and I am being led down the garden path. Does anyone know any better?

2/ The seat cushion shown in the parts book pic, (numbered 14,15) has a wooden base that sits over the locker lid, held in place at the rear end with two winged bolts. There are two flat staple brackets between the front and rear locker covers, are these used as a mounting device for the front end of the seat? Has anyone actually seen this setup? I did see the remains of a rotted out seat years ago, but I considered it was in too poor a state at the time to bother taking a photo of. Fool!

Any help gratefully received.
Rich.

[fv1620]

Richard greetings, I want to help but I'm having difficulty orientating myself to the lower picture, have you got a wider shot to show a bit more please? Bear in mind my GS has long since rotted away & having difficulty getting a feel to the problem.

Have I understood you correctly that you have a part marked FV228911 but it is not in the parts book or is it the hinged brackets that sit on FV228911?

I can't find FV228911 in the 1952 or 1960 editions nor in the copious amendments that were regularly issued for both. Although the 1952 edition is nothing like comprehensive & is not illustrated.

But I wonder whether the shortfall is that the trucks were originally designated CT & as economies were forced on the production certain unspecified features were done away with & they were then classed as GS.

Very early circuit diagrams show turn lights (of a type later used on the FV1609) as you know turn lights you see on Humbers are after service mods. So I wonder if the things you are having difficulty with are related to the CT to GS downgrade?

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Hi Clive,
You're right, I could have described the situation a little better. Hoop and part in question have just been stripped and painted, too sticky for a new pic, hopefully I have been able to enlarge the previous image.
This bracket is part hinge, and folds down 90 deg. (to the rear). There is another in the same location on the drivers side of the hoop). On disassembly, after posting yesterday, I realised that the webbing strap remains were doubled over when riveted, giving two ends. This would then make it possible to pass one end up and over the stowed sections, and back to a buckle on the other end.
So I think I know how it worked, but still do not know if the bracket is original, an Aussy mod, or something else. I do know that if you don't secure the stowed tubes they do tend to disappear on rough roads.....
My manual/catalogue images show a much simpler arrangement of the front hoop itself, as can be seen in the pic I used for the seat query.

On another note, 7 years ago you showed a copy of the Commer Manual, found my own copy last month! Few differences I noted, including the snorkel arrangement.
Regards
Rich.

[fv1620]

Afraid I can't come up with anything Rich. Just wondered if there was a Mod that would cover the area. Most of the EMER Mods relate to Pigs & the earlier GS Mods No.1 -31 were cancelled & destroyed. However after many years of searching I found just an index for these that escaped destruction. Unfortunately none of them cover what you are after, unless there was a E&MEI (AUS)?

Well done on the Commer manual, the imprint suggests to me there were only 250 printed. Where are the 248 copies?

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Thanks for looking Clive, I appreciate it as always.
There is precious little over here on the Humber in Aussy service, certainly never seen anything relating to official mods over here, apart from the step to protect the fuel tank neck maybe.
250 copies..... for a run of 158 Commers, I think there will be plenty to go around for sometime to come! Anyway, all the important people have a copy.....
Cheerio
Rich.

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

It appears that there are two different seat styles used in combination for the Humber tub, as can be seen in the drawing a couple of posts back. I have used owners privilege to fit
four matching seats bases, instead of two.
The seat covers are NOS, so the seat size is accurate, as is the shape (rectangle with tapered rear corners and no backrest. As the rotted original I saw years ago had a wood frame and what appeared to be the old style Dunlopillow cushion, with a rusted bracket at one end, I came up with the following.
According to the parts book each of the rear seats was held in place by two wingbolts, and as there are two captive nuts in just the right position, I have made a bracket to suit. The front seats are held in place with a bracket utilising the existing staple type fittings.
Information regarding the seating in the back of the Humber for the Australian Army is non-existent, so this will have to do in the meantime.