T16 restoration starts in earnest

[andrew honychurch]

So after sitting around for the last 30 years, yes it really is that long since I last played with the Carrier, I have started a full nut and bolt restoration in earnest.. Have now stripped the drivers compartment and fully rebuilt all the steering controls, taken out the engine and gearbox. The gearbox has been rebuilt as it was rather full of rust and the two bearings on the mainshaft had had their day. It turns beautifully now, but the main drive male pinion on the back of the gearbox is badly chipped and worn, so I will need a new one of those if anyone has one please let me know. The engine was run before I took it out and all seemed fine except a leaking carburretor. The distributor has been rebuilt and a new modern 12volt coil adaptor plate added to the top. Lots of work to be done inside the hull . Loads of little bracketry has rotted away and in the rear much of the tin boxes will need making again. First two batches of good bits have already been sandblasted and primed. Here are some photos to start the thread.

here is a link to my photobucket page where I will load the photos as I go.

http://s714.photobucket.com/albums/w...sal%20Carrier/

Andrew

[Marc van Aalderen]

Hello Andrew,

If the male sprocket is the same as an Universal one then Dirk Leegwater has them NOS. Good luck with your restauration.
I took my Universal and Dingo to W&P last week. Had great fun despite the terrible dust. I suppose you were there too?

Cheers,

Marc van Aalderen

[andrew honychurch]

Hi Marc. Yes I was there, desperately and pretty much unsuccesfully looking for parts. I shoudl add that the serial number is T 440587, but not sure how to edit the original post now. I will try to find out whether the drive gear is the same on Universal as T16. How do I contact Dirk? I can tell you that it has six internal splines and 16 outer gears. I have about half of all the outside gears left, well I mean all are there but they have broken aroudn half there length. I think we broke quite a few getting the engine and box out as it was well and truly stuck. Some of my helpers were a bit over enthusiastic in waggling the suspended engine and box around to free the splines! Ah well, they must have been pretty weak anyway. Not the end of the world. gearbox was pretty yuck and stuck in gear as the selectors had rusted up. Anyway, it will be a lot better for a rebuild. Going to leave the engine for now, and get the rest of the hull stripped. Plan is to weld new track guards down the sides and above the rear axle as David Gordon has done so well on his. Mine came out of a scrapyard in Portsmouth in 1978/9 . Floor not too bad but need to repair some of the drain plug holes which are very rough where the rust has got to them. Does anyone know if the floor plate is threaded for the plugs or is there an insert? anyway, very much enjoying it and I feel I have already done the worst job which was stripping the drivers compartment out which was horrible. Gearstick lower swivel housing was a complete block of rust, but is now fine after some judicious use of heat and oil. More to follwo soon. Andrew

[Marc van Aalderen]

Hello Andrew,

If you want I can get the sprocket for you and ship it. Need to talk to Dirk anyway. But please, let somebody confirm the part numbers are the same. I have no T16 parts list so can't help you there. You can find Dirk through his website www.lwdparts.com. The sprocket is listed under Canadian parts and costs a mere € 25.

Cheers,
Marc

[andrew honychurch]

Hi Marc, thats kind of you. I have looked at the website and it certainly looks the same. I have the T16 parts number somewhere, but can measure it up and let you know by pm what the dimensions are if you like. Dirk may well know if it is the same if you speak to him. Thx andrew

[Marc van Aalderen]

Hi Andrew,

I will call Dirk and ask him. To be continued.....

Marc

[horsa]

Hey Andrew,

Welding new steel over the rot was something we thought about at first since it is obviously much easier to do. It would also be stronger with the double skin, but only at first. Mud and water would get trapped between them and it'd be like termites for steel. You wouldn't know there was a new rot problem until the newer upper layer began to come apart.

Certainly better to go ahead and cut the cancer out while you are tearing everything else down. That way it will outlast you and someone else can enjoy it while you're pushing up daisies for them to drive on

On that small tranny output gear, I know that Rod Shaver had them NOS a couple of years ago. Sure he still has some available. If he still isn't responding to messages, it could be he is not currently on-line. The MVPA national convention in the USA was the week before the W&P show in the UK and he likely attended both events and may not be home.

If you ever make contact with him, ask him if he still has Windsor carbs. They have a different part number from the T-16 type but we determined the only difference is the choke mechanism. T-16 is set up for an electric pattern and the Windsor used a manual style. Internal parts and most of the cases are the same so its a viable source for NOS spare parts if needed.

[andrew honychurch]

Hi David, thanks for the heads up on the transmission drive. For the avoidance of doubt, according to my T16 Parts list, the part is interchangeable with Canadian UC. I thought they looked the same. On the carbs, I may have a source of a new one here in the Uk, and also I think I have a source of the autochoke mechanism. I have attached a picture of the choke I have been offered. Made by Sisson Choke. Pierce Gov USA?

[horsa]

The choke looks like the one I have mounted to the engines intake manifold. They can be hard to find but weren't a T-16 specific item.

[andrew honychurch]

Originally Posted by horsa

The choke looks like the one I have mounted to the engines intake manifold. They can be hard to find but weren't a T-16 specific item.

Having read the manual last night, I just worked out why we never managed to get the choke to work properly. i assumed that it was a thermostatically controlled unit when it appears that it is also controlled by electrical current. Mine has never been wired to any power supply, so I guess it was never likely to work! The guy who has these chokes has a few, not sure how many but will report back. Andrew

[tankbarrell]

Originally Posted by andrew honychurch

Having read the manual last night, I just worked out why we never managed to get the choke to work properly. i assumed that it was a thermostatically controlled unit when it appears that it is also controlled by electrical current. Mine has never been wired to any power supply, so I guess it was never likely to work! The guy who has these chokes has a few, not sure how many but will report back. Andrew

The electrical function is activated by the starter circuit so you get full choke whilst cranking. Upon releasing the starter button it reverts to partial choke, this gradually goes to no choke as the bi-metal spring warms up.

[andrew honychurch]

thanks Adrian, i guessed it was something like this. I had never seen the small terminal on the choke control and the previous owner had not wired it up . Anyway, will start from scratch when its all back together once more.

Had a big day today, and stripped most of the rest of the internal rear hull compartment. this included both oil coolers and pipes to rear, and the main gearshift control bar. that took some getting out . Most of the bolts are either rusted away, so a spanner/socket will not fit or rusted solid. anyway, a combination of a cracking set of Mole Grips and the old blowtorch has sorted most of the fitments. Am thinking of taking the tracks off tomorrow and the back axle out. If its quite as hot here as it has been today, it will be hard work. Stuck down inside a Carrier with legs bent and feeling my age, it has been hard work stripping the hull. Anyway, its well on its way now.

David, did you replace all the oil cooler lines with copper? If so why? I am hoping I can keep mine, although I am going to have to recore the oil coolers , they look dreadful Good news is the chap who will do that is only about 3 miles from where I live.

[andrew honychurch]

boths tracks cracked today and the back axle out. I take back what I said about the worst job being the drivers compartment. The axle removal was horrible. Nothing particularly hard, just a long and ardous job made less appealing by the need to bend double under the rear decking. Tracks came off quite easily but I am definitely not going to be able to put it back in without a track tensioner and link attachment too. Anyway, not too much more to go before it is ready to go off to the sandblaster and fabricator to weld all the little bits back in.

Still trying to understand what the hull drains plugs look like. Does anyone have a photo or schematic of them off the vehicle. All I have is holes in the floor where they fit.

[horsa]

Took awhile to research the code in the parts manual for the drain plugs. But they come from the Ford T-17 Deerhound which was an armored car that was in the running for U.S. government contracts during the war. Guess the Greyhound was the winner since it received an "M" number (M8) with the T-17-E1 Staghound a close second since they were also produced in limited numbers. The T-18-E2 Boarhound was another in that contest.

I've not found a source for good replacement drain plugs and nothing modern has the same dimensions. A machinist friend that has a T-16 milled plugs for my vehicle which are installed in the rear section where they wouldn't be visible but can be removed from underneath if needed. He patterned them with large hex heads that are the same size as the hub nuts in the rear end. That way the same large socket tool would work for them since it would already be part of the tool set carried on the vehicle.

These are a good alternative but would only work on vehicles that still have useable threaded flanges on them.

[andrew honychurch]

Thankyou David, as always thats very informative. My T16 has two of the bosses/flanges still attached to the floor with the plugs still in them, but all the others seem to have come off their fixings. I cant really imagine why, unless they were either presses into the floor rather than welded or badly attached. The rest of the floor is not so bad that would have rotted off. Anyway, my plan is to try to aquire some bungs here in the UK and then make some new females to weld into the floor. I am off to see a load of T16 parts that I have tracked down, but I have no idea what is in the bundle until I go. I will report back. If the worst comes to the worst I suppose I could have some new bungs cast and then machined up but this will be a lot and money.

[andrew honychurch]

Can anyone help with a question about the T16 please? I gather there is a company in the US that makes new front side skirts for the Universal Carrier and I was wondering whether they are the same as a T16? I sort of imagine that they are not, but advice would be very helpful . Also , cannot recall what the company is called now. I think the guy who owns the company may have been displaying some of his products on the Wildenberg stand at War and Peace.

Also, in terms of production number, can anyone tell me how many Universal Carriers were produced vs the 13,000 ( I think) T16?

thx andrew

[Marc van Aalderen]

Hello Andrew,

I believe the total number of Universals is around 100.000. Ford Canada built approximately 28.000 of that number.

BTW Tried Dirk a couple of times. No luck just voicemail. Will keep on trying.

Cheers,
Marc

[RichardT10829]

Andrew i know the front fenders on the T16 have a different radius to the Universals so with that in mind the sandguards may not be the same.... however that is not to say they could not be made to fit

[Marc van Aalderen]

Andrew,

Just remembered I had this Company under my Favourites. They are called Midwest Military and their link is http://www.midwestmil.com/index.html

Marc

[RichardT10829]

would not care i have just made a run of Mk1 style sand guards for Kevin, Myself, and one for Martyn.....

[andrew honychurch]

Thanks Guys, interesting information on the numbers. Seems to be more T16's around nowadays than Bren Universals, but maybe the latter are more dispersed.

Thanks for the link to Midwest and the information on the radius' which I sort of suspected. I will try to take a look at the website. When it comes down to it with the cost of shipping I may be best to get them made over here. Anyone know how the beading on the bottom outer edge is made? Is it welded on to strengthen, or is it a rolled edge made by a special machine? To be honest, that appears to be the only tricky bit to the fabrication. Mind you , I am a bit in front of myself as I havent even got the hull done yet!

Oh, and anyone got some nice new fuel tank sender units??

[RichardT10829]

Andrew its a rolled edge and is very hard to fabricate, the metal is 16swg these were made in a press and without it, its very hard to get the metal to form correctly without it deforming. the ones i did i bent over sectional then brazed in the slits so it looks like it has been pressed. my other thoughts were to use steel brake pipe slit it then weld it onto the sheet however when i compared it to an original item the diameter of the pipe was slightly too small..... mind unless you had one held up against an original you would not know.

it will cost you in the region of $400 US to get a pair from John, then shipping and customs charges on top.

perhaps David (Horsa) could knock you up some paper patterns of his then you could make some yourself and save some cash. thinking on also i think the T16 sand guards have like a right angle flat bar welded onto the outside to carry a tool or something.....you will see on Davids thread.

Rich

[andrew honychurch]

Thanks Richard. Fortunately I do have the originals, which are twisted and peppered so I imagine they will be good enough to use at patterns. I seem to recall that there is a special machine for forminh this . In fact I think it may have been detailed on the Mid West website. Ummh...nothing is straightforward with restorations is it?

My guess is we will have to dummy it as you suggest, welding the bead on afterwards. When my Daimler Armoured Car wings were fabricated the chap welded on the internal strengthening bead and you just could not tell afterwards. They were originally rolled as part of the process. andrew

[andrew honychurch]

A big day today, I managed to get out all the four axles ( as I call them ) . Not an easy job as most of the bolts and nuts were seriously corroded from having the best part of 20 years sitting with water inside the hull. Anyway, I can see some tapping and maybe thread inserts having to go back into the axle housings. When I took off the bogies I note there is a big rubber bush on the axle shaft which fits behind the bogie, i.e up tight against the rear flange,. I assume this is to hold in grease and keep out dirt ingress. One is missing althogether and several have seen better days. Can anyone advise whether these are obtainable?
Not long now before the hull is fully stripped and ready for blasting and welding. Another conundrum is that to do the welding properly it really needs blasting before and then I guess after all the welding and grinding its going to have to be done again which is a pain. Lets hope the blaster thinks it will be easier second time and charge me less.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by andrew honychurch

A big day today, I managed to get out all the four axles ( as I call them ) . Not an easy job as most of the bolts and nuts were seriously corroded from having the best part of 20 years sitting with water inside the hull. Anyway, I can see some tapping and maybe thread inserts having to go back into the axle housings. When I took off the bogies I note there is a big rubber bush on the axle shaft which fits behind the bogie, i.e up tight against the rear flange,. I assume this is to hold in grease and keep out dirt ingress. One is missing altogether and several have seen better days. Can anyone advise whether these are obtainable?
Not long now before the hull is fully stripped and ready for blasting and welding. Another conundrum is that to do the welding properly it really needs blasting before and then I guess after all the welding and grinding its going to have to be done again which is a pain. Lets hope the blaster thinks it will be easier second time and charge me less.

Andrew..
Some seals and bearings here..some are half track but some ate T16 too I think..

http://shop.ebay.com/xstuff/m.html

[Marc van Aalderen]

Originally Posted by andrew honychurch

Another conundrum is that to do the welding properly it really needs blasting before and then I guess after all the welding and grinding its going to have to be done again which is a pain. Lets hope the blaster thinks it will be easier second time and charge me less.

I think that it is better to remove paint and /or rust with an angle grinder using a sanding disc or wire brush and then weld. Saves you a lot of hasle and money. This is how I always do it and it works very well.

Cheers,

[RichardT10829]

As per Marks comments...Andrew i would just get an 80 grit paddle wheel for your grinder and run along the edges where the welds are, if your using a mig i advise using a gas shielded unit for better quality. then once done you can get the whole lot blasted and she should come up a pearler. i got quoted about £400 to get my tub blasted so opted for steel wire mandrells and grinders.... managed to get my hull back to shiney steel then used an etch primer followed by a few coats of red oxide and first coat of base (light stone)......must add this has only been done on the lower hull away from where i will be putting hot rivets.


have fun

[andrew honychurch]

Thanks for the input guys. Its good sound advice and I will take another look at the task to consider whether I can achive my goals without sandblasting twice. I am not too bothered about the new track covers in sides of the hull and over the rear axle as the metal is not badly corroded here and will clean up very well. Its really the floor. The bulkhead behind the driver is corroded in places right where it joins the floor, and the inboard brackets that support the axle brackets in the front need remanufacturing and welding to the floor, plus umpteen brackets and fixings on the floor. I am just concerned that I will not get the metal on these areas clean enough to weld effectively. Its certainly worth a try though as it will cost a lot less than sandblasting. I keep doing jobs on this project and convincing myself that I have done the worst job on the Carrier! Well today, I am sure the removal of the axles housings was the worst so far. As long as they go back in ok, then I feel I have broken the projects back. Loads to do , but I think I am past the worse, although not half way. I have attached a photo of the floor once more. Will post more soon.

[RichardT10829]

Plan Z would perhaps be just get the edges arounnd the areas you want to weld, if its just a small area most compressers will have sufficient CFM to power a cheap blaster unit from say "Clarke" or somewhere. Saves getting someone out or transporting the hull. Then once your ready you can get the entire hull done. you can also get some fantastic metal prep solutions, just make sure you rinse and then run a blow torch over the areas treated before you Mig it or you may poison yourself and the welds wont stick

[andrew honychurch]

After seeing Seans posts I was driven to get on with taking my T16 to be welded. Winched it onto the trailer today and took it down to the welder. Her are some photos, I suppose I will think I am half way once its back from him. Not sure thats right, but it seems a good mind trick nevertheless.