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  #1  
Old 02-03-03, 23:53
Vets_Dottir
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Default Books photos about executed POWS June 1944

Hi.

I'm looking for books about the Canadian POWS who were executed by the 12th SS Panzer Div June 8, 1944.
My Uncle was one of those soldiers and I'm writing about him. I want to know some of the events of those days in June, and I want to know `facts', not over-dramatizations or `wrong information'.
Judging the nature of this site I'm assuming I can hope to get some good/real info and suggestions on reading/viewing material.

(I'm already waiting to receive copies of `Take No Prisoners' video, and the library is searching for `Conduct Unbecoming by Howard Margolian, so am looking for `other sourse here)

I'm also looking for any photos that specifically include my uncle:

EDWARD SMITH, RIFLEMAN,
ROYAL WINNIPEG RIFLES `Little Black Devils'
`died' June 8/44
service #: H/42084

All mementos, photos, papers were destroyed by housefire so I'm searching via here and other places.

Thank you for any help...and Thank all you soldiers past, present and futurefor all you do and sacrifice.
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  #2  
Old 03-03-03, 00:49
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default Re: Massacres

There were indeed numerous accounts of Canadians being shot out-of-hand early in the Normandy campaign. The enemy were principally elements of the 12th SS, whose commander, Kurt Meyer, was convicted for same after the war. He was sentenced to death, but that sentence was later commuted and he served (I believe) 10 years in prison.

The 12th SS came into Normandy with as many as 20,000 soldiers; they left with fewer than 1,000, three months later. Once the trussed-up bodies of executed Canadians were found, our troops rarely showed the members of the 12th SS any mercy.

There is a book out right now on the subject of the massacre, but I can't for the life of me remember the title at the moment. Give me some time, it WILL come back to me!

Geoff
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  #3  
Old 03-03-03, 01:22
Vets_Dottir
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Default

Thank you so much for your reply. I hope youremember that title too

It ain't easy reading the details because my imagination and empathy are pretty powerful ... but I like the facts.

...trussed up....god.

When I read somewhere that some of the soldiers had had their throats cut all I could think of was my stepfather slashing pigs throats on the farm, in order to bleed them. Its a slow death which I saw first hand as a preschooler. Need I say more?

I don't have all the `gory details'. Just that someones uncle (another Canadian POW who somehow escaped execution, he justdied last week)remembered:

`... a group of soldiers selected from a group the Nazis were leading to `the Abbaye???' ... the selected soldiers were led to a field and machine gunned to death...'

Gory or not, if my Uncle had the courage to go volunteer to war and knowingly risk sacrificing his life, I can certainly have the courage to read and know the gory details. I've two daughters...20/27 and a grandson 2 and one on the way. I want them to know the history and the ways and whys.

So...I search for memories and photos...info on the details etc so I can write about my Uncle, a simple country boy with Metis roots and a family back home, who gave it all up in his efforts to help.

If that ain't a noble story to anyone...then

So there!

Thaks again...Carman
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  #4  
Old 03-03-03, 02:03
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
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Default Re: Rfn Smith, E., RWR

Hi Carman;

Just a bit of background info needed, if you can - your Uncle, Rifleman Edward Smith, Royal Winnipeg Rifles, do you know if a Major F.E. Hodge and a Lance-Corporal A.R. Fuller, were with your Uncle at the time of his death and also would you happen to know the general area in which his death occured.

Would be most grateful for any information you could provide.

By the way, the book Geoff mentioned, but can't remember the title to is, I believe entitled Murder at the Abbaye, The Story of Twenty Canadian Soldiers Murdered at the Abbaye d' Ardenne, by Ian J. Campbell, but if I'm not mistaken, this book deals with the deaths of soldiers from the HLI of C, S.D.& G.'s, NNSH and 27 CAR, not from the RWR.

Cheers

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  #5  
Old 03-03-03, 02:25
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default

MARK -- I know "Murder at the Abbaye", but's that not what I was thinking of... it deals mostly with the North Novas who were executed one at a time at L'Abbaye d'Ardenne as you said. I've read something else, somewhere, which touches on the Winnipegs killed in the field.

Let me dig some more.

CARMAN -- If you click on my underlined name anywhere, you'll get my profile... you can email me OR PM me anytime. I'm on and off the computer tomight as I'm getting ready to go to Toronto at oh-dark-thirty tomorrow, but I'll get your message regardless. I may answer tomorrow during the day, though, depending on time.

Geoff
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  #6  
Old 03-03-03, 02:32
Vets_Dottir
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Default MARK

Hi Mark.

I'm gathering bits and pieces of info
here and there from different sources.
I'm doing great because I've only been
searching for a couple of weeks!!! All I knew
before then about my Uncle was
POW/MIA/then found/buried Beny-Sur-Mer died jun 8/44. No details...so...yes...doing great.

I wish I could tell you that I know the
names of Major F. E. Hodge and
Lance-Corporal A. R. Fuller
but I don't. YET! If I come across
mention of them while I continue searching
I'll let you know asap.

General area where Uncle Eddie was murdered:
(I hope I've got this correct)

-in a field beside the CAEN FONTENAY ROAD.
My understanding is that there were 37 or 40
men murdered in that field...altho 3 soldiers
had somehow managed to escape. Some of this
info I got from the Royal Winnipeg Rifles Museum.

My Uncle definately was not one of the men
at the Abbaye. The vet I mentioned before that
witnessed my Uncles group taken to the field
and machine gunned to death had also mentioned
that he also witnessed an Aboriginal soldier cruelly murdered right in front of him.

The above information came from the grandson of
this vet who witnessed these events. `Grampa' told the stories to his grandson. Grandson told me. The Grandpa died last week and is no longer able to pass on stories and facts. I don't want to approach the grandson and request more stories at this time. The loss is much too new to intrude.

I hope I've helped. Take care.
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  #7  
Old 03-03-03, 03:02
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
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Default Re: Follow-up on Info

Hi Carman;

A bit of a follow-up, could you tell me the information that you obtained from the Royal Winnipeg Rifles Museum regarding your uncle. Thanks
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  #8  
Old 03-03-03, 03:30
Vets_Dottir
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Default MARK and GEOFF

GEOFF: I'll try the private message again!

MARK: I was emotional to hear the little info
the Wpg Rif. Museum told me, didn't write things
down, but just remember the part about Uncle Eddie
being murdered/shot in a fieldwith 37-40 others,
and that 3 POWS had somehow escaped.

Currently am waiting to hear back from
Cliff Chadderton. 2 people referred me to him
so sent an email (c/o Waramps)requesting any
info he may have.

I will have more info eventually, and will
be writing what I know. Whatever I end up
writing, I'll probably share with others, as its `history...everybody history when its military Canada.

You know...NOWHERE have I seen LISTS OF NAMES
of ALL THE CANADIAN POWS who were murdered around June 8th along with my Uncle. Why not? :
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  #9  
Old 03-03-03, 03:31
Snowtractor Snowtractor is offline
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Default Royal Winnipeg Rifles

I would be curious if my Uncle's name was ever mentioned, Cpl Ralph Earnest Spencer RWR , died june 6th/44 on Juno beach. I would have to look it up but I believe he was in in 1942 so the odds are he new many of the RWR's by sight at least.
On a side note , again I would have to check, but I believe one of the letters about Ralph is from Major Hodge.
Sean Spencer
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  #10  
Old 03-03-03, 03:48
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default

You've seen these, I trust....


H/42084 SMITH, Edward:

http://www.cwgc.org.uk/detailed.asp?casualty=2060243


H/40660 SPENCER, Ralph Earnest:

http://www.cwgc.org.uk/detailed.asp?casualty=2060276
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  #11  
Old 03-03-03, 03:56
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default

Good lord, just look at those two serial numbers.... barely 1400 apart and in the same militia district. They must have joined within a day or so of one another, and very probably have trained together throughout.
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  #12  
Old 03-03-03, 04:29
Vets_Dottir
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Default Juno Jun 6

I have seen the info about my Uncle and have also seen his name in the Commemorative Book of Remembrance.

Here comes a question I've been meaning to search out an answer to:

How many Little Black Devils `landed' on Juno Beach on June 6/44? and I wonder how many came home.

I really am a newbie to military `talk and history' I don't know my unit from my telephone :-)

I need a coffee...
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  #13  
Old 04-03-03, 01:26
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Default Re: H42084 Rifleman Edward Smith, Royal Winnipeg Rifles

Carman;

Your Uncle, Rifleman Smith, E., was indeed murdered, after capture on 8 June 1944, at Fontenay-le-Pesnel. This is the site where Mohnke was responsible for the murders.

Both the book CONDUCT UNBECOMING and the video TAKE NO PRISONERS, place your Uncle has one of the victims at Fontenay-le-Pesnel.

The memorial erected at Audrieu, by the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, in 1989, bears your Uncle's name upon it, along with the others who were murdered and also, he is now listed by the Royal Winnipeg Rifles as being murdered.

I will post a more detailed response concerning Fontenay-le-Pesnel, once I've put the details together.

Originally, your Uncle was not one of the ones listed as being executed after capture by the 12th SS, he was listed as being Killed in Action, at Putot-en-Bessin, on 8 June 1944.

Anyways, hope all of the above helps.

Cheers
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  #14  
Old 04-03-03, 01:40
Vets_Dottir
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Unhappy Mark

thank you Mark
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  #15  
Old 04-03-03, 02:33
Vets_Dottir
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Default AUDRIEU Memorial

Hi.

I just searched for the `Audrieu Memorial'
online and found it...BUT

My Uncle's name is NOT listed on it.
I'm going to contact the Wpg Rifles Museum
to find out `WHY NOT?' :

From what I'm learning and understanding
he needs to be on that Memorial.
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  #16  
Old 04-03-03, 02:52
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
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Question Re: Memorial

Carman;

Before you contact the Rifles, do you know how old the picture of the Memorial you found is? Your Uncle's name has apparently just recently been added.

Cheers
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  #17  
Old 04-03-03, 03:05
Vets_Dottir
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Default oooops!

Too late Mark! I'm an ARIES you know!!!! I fired off an email already

If you can find a link that shows an update to the one below in which my Uncles name is NOT listed...to one that it is, PLEASE...let me know!

www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm/feature/ normandy/memorials/audrieu

`ATTENTION!'
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  #18  
Old 04-03-03, 03:24
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
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Unhappy Re: The Veterans Affairs Site _ Audrieu Memorial

Carman;

Yes you were to fast

The site you were looking at, has not been up-dated since 1999, that is why your Uncle's name isn't there. (last up-dated was at the bottom of the page)

Like I said, it was only recently added to the actual Memorial located at Audrieu.

Oh well, if your "Rocket" was directed at the Rifles, them being Infanteer's, they'll hear it coming and "DUCK", I hope.

Cheers
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  #19  
Old 04-03-03, 03:38
Vets_Dottir
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Talking

yore so

I needed the humor!
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  #20  
Old 04-03-03, 06:43
Snowtractor Snowtractor is offline
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Unhappy Winnies Rifles

I still haven't found the papers yet, tidiness is the first sign of a warped mind. But I remember that the RWR advanced farther than their armour cover and were badly mauled by a Panzer group, I believe SS in the next day or so. Seems to me they were removed from the line as they were decimated and no longer a combat effective unit.
The letter I have a copy of did state that " so few of the boys are left " that they couldn't find anyone left alive who saw Ralph die, but a couple who had heard 2nd hand.
Sean
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  #21  
Old 04-03-03, 07:05
Vets_Dottir
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Default

Reply to Winnie Rifles:

Hi. I'm amazed at just how much information was able to be found and documented out of such chaotic events and circumstances.

===========
EVERYONE in general who reads this:

I `rocketed' off an email to the
VETERANS AFFAIRS website `requesting'
an updated `AUDRIEU MEMORIAL' page
since the last update
was in 1999 and at least one new name
that I know of (My Uncles) has been added
to the Memorial since 1999.

If they don't update soon I'll persist.
If that fails could I expect `back-up persistance'
from folks in here?
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  #22  
Old 04-03-03, 15:18
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Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Post Re: Winnies Rifles

Quote:
Originally posted by Snowtractor "were badly mauled by a Panzer group, I believe SS in the next day or so. Seems to me they were removed from the line as they were decimated and no longer a combat effective unit."
Snowtractor;

8 June 1944, Putot-en-Bessin - it was the 2nd Bn of Mohnke's 26th SS Pz-Gren Regt that attacked and encircled the Winnipeg Rifles' positions, there was actually no tanks involved, the only support the Germans had was their own 75mm SPW's.

By midafternoon of the 8th, "A", "B" and "C" Companies, of the Rifles, having been encircled and nearly out of ammunition, under cover of smoke, began to withdraw. Only a handful made it back to join "D" Coy (nearly all three companies were lost to a man) and set up defensive positions near their BHQ, east of Putot, .

Late in the evening of the 8th, the Rifles were withdrawn into Brigade reserve, being replaced by the Canadian Scottish Regiment.

Considering, that the Rifles strength on landing on the 6th was around 730(+)(can't find the exact figure) and that their casualties alone for that day were 128 all ranks, one of the assault companies having been practically eliminated and that their casualties for the 8th were another 256 overall, nearly half their fighting strength and that up until the time they were withdrawn into reserve, there had been no time since landing for proper reinforcement or reorginization, left very little in the way of actual fighting troops on the ground.

So Sean, "tidiness is the first sign of a warped mind", Gee!, I guess I'm warped than

Cheers
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  #23  
Old 04-03-03, 18:03
Vets_Dottir
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Default

Hi.


MARK: I'm glad you replied to `Snowtractor'
because I couldn't. I don't know the history
and I'm glad this site can find so many answers
from people who know.

SNOWTRACTOR: Sorry I'm too out of my
league here to give you information:


AUDRIEU MEMORIAL: I already had a `reply'
from the Veterans Affairs...my email about the
update has been `forwarded to the appropriate
dept...and you should hear back from them soon'

MARK...gee...yah wanna clean up my house?
Paper paper everywhere..aaargh
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  #24  
Old 05-03-03, 00:40
Snowtractor Snowtractor is offline
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Default Thx Mark

...appreciate the info. I am going to have to get the book now. For all of my many virtues :-) though cleanliness be one tidiness was not to be included , as penance I suspect, by the powers that be. Q.E.D I must destroy that which I cannot possess... now if only my wife would buy that.
Sean
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  #25  
Old 05-03-03, 05:44
Snowtractor Snowtractor is offline
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Default Serial Numbers

Could Ralph's serial # 40660 mean 660th enlisted in 1940 and Edward's # 42084 mean 84th of 1942. As I have found the letters and it states he enlisted in 1940 ,June. Trained in Shilo and , Debert NS and went overseas in 1941, Aug.
Letters were from H40945 Rfm Cram M.A. ( Murray) Supt.Coy Royal Wpg Rifles BWEF and also from Major G.I. James RWR .
I might add that Spencer lake was named on april 14,1972 in his Honor in Manitoba. Edward Smith must have one named for him also according to the letter attached stating that more than 1900 lakes rivers and creeks are named after Manitoba's WWII casualties.
Sean Spencer
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  #26  
Old 05-03-03, 06:51
Vets_Dottir
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Default Hi Sean.

I was thinking that you were more conversing
with Mark than with me! But since you add my Uncles name I figure I can `jump in here now'
Also...I'm so ignorant about `war/army talk, lingo etc, tho learning a lot, quickly.

Your posting is really interesting me, its also got me confused about whether you're referring to `Ralph' or to `Edward' enlisting, etc (tho I think you proabably meant Ralph?)

What you mention to me about Manitoba honoring the WW2 casualties by naming lakes etc after them is amazing. I had no idea....so you believe my Uncle Eddie had a water way named after him??? I like that your `father?' was so honored!

When doing geneology searches I've noticed `Smith Falls, Man'. Never heard of it, nor do I know where its located, but the `Falls' part is probably like be like Pine `Falls'... to do with tree falling rather than water in a flat land (I was born at Pine Falls hospital)

My family never talked about Uncle Eddie...no one liked to ask because of the hurt and pain that awakened. Now all his siblings (including my Mom) and his parents, etc, are all passed on and its too late to ask the questions I'd always wanted to. I left back home and moved west when I was 11 and haven't had much chance to `gather info thru the years' etc... I wasn't always with my family...so...there are many reasons I'm so `stupid' about my family history...and other things again! BUT...I'm all eyes and ears now.

I don't understand the significance or manner of the service record numbering but I'm sure someone in here knows. Your thots sound logical! I don't know my Uncles birthdate yet...or when he enlisted. If I can get his records I'll know. I"d be interesting in knowing about the numbering.

Those letters you have sound interesting too!!!!
Boy...look where my memories and questions about my uncle have brought me now....I've learned so much already and want to keepon...I babble as ever...sorry...will post now! C
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  #27  
Old 05-03-03, 13:53
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default Re: Serial Numbers

Quote:
Originally posted by Snowtractor
Could Ralph's serial # 40660 mean 660th enlisted in 1940 and Edward's # 42084 mean 84th of 1942. As I have found the letters and it states he enlisted in 1940 ,June. Trained in Shilo and , Debert NS and went overseas in 1941, Aug.
Letters were from H40945 Rfm Cram M.A. ( Murray) Supt.Coy Royal Wpg Rifles BWEF and also from Major G.I. James RWR .
Sean, the numbers were all sequential, NOT date-coded. They were issued in blocks to various recruiting centres throughout each Militia District, so technically some number blocks might be used before other, higher number blocks depending on how busy they were.

Ralph & Edward joined 1424 bodies apart. They may or may not have joined in the same place, but when I get back to London on Thursday, I can look that up for you. Courtesy of Service Publications, I have a master chart of all wartime number blocks...

Geoff
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  #28  
Old 05-03-03, 20:55
Snowtractor Snowtractor is offline
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Default Serial Numbers

Thanks Geoff, good info. I was reading more and it seems that Ralph was with BCoy for any ones info.
I looked on the War Graves Commision site for M.A. Cram Rfm and it seems he made it through the war. I wonder if anyone here knows who he is or was.
Carmen, I tend to respond to the topic more than one person but its all open for comment so fire away. A significant portion of the fellow posting here are ex military or work closely with them so they are more comfortable with platoon strengths and companies and the , somewhat confusing to we civilians, inner workings and codes etc. I am sure Geoff will protest that "it's really very simple" :-) but we know. All that being said I avoid being too specific on units because I'll probably get it wrong.
As for the lake thing Spencer lake is 59 49 n by 101 49 which means its near the MB NWT/Nunavut border ...way up there. So I wouldn't be surprised if Smith Lake is up there too...but you never know.
Sean
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  #29  
Old 05-03-03, 21:16
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Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Post Re: Ralph - "B" Coy

Snowtractor;

Just a note, "B" Coy, The Royal Winnipeg Rifles, was the assault company I was referring to in my earlier post, that took very heavy casualties on 6 June 1944.

Also a note about Service Numbers,

B-10022 joined in Sept 1939 (Military District No. 2) (10th Fd Bty)

B-115973 joined in Apr 1943 (Military District No. 2) (also Royal Winnipeg Rifles)

Cheers
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  #30  
Old 05-03-03, 21:20
Vets_Dottir
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SEAN:

Thanks for the `friendly fire' I think my stupidest question so far must have been the one about the `little black circles in the envelopes'.
Paying attention to details is often not a strong point with me. Mom (god rest her lovin' soul)once suggested when I was a teenager (many moons ago)`Why don't you join the Army?' I'd reply to that now with, `No Mom. Gotta protect people. Not cause their demise because I'm a space cadet. The Army would want to protect their own from the likes of me.'

UNCLE EDDIE: I think I saw somewhere that he was with `B' (company or some such)

B (company ?)
3rd Canadian Infantry Division
7th Infantry Brigade

(Geoff...I have a vague recollection of some diagram in the MLU (SOMEWHERE) website showing how the groups were structured?)

Will pull out my atlas and look for any place in Manitoba named SMITH whatever.

Back at you :-) C.
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