Kangaroo named Karla

Spurrat · #1 11-09-06, 21:08

Knowing that this board is a wealth of knowledge, I put it to you distinguished MLU'ers have you ever seen a picture a "B" Squadron 1CACR Kangaroo named "Karla" or "Belle".

My Grandpa had apparently named his Kangaroo Karla when he received word that my Mom was born. I would appreciate it if anyone could help me find a picture.

Thank You!

kevinT · #2 11-09-06, 22:00

Hello Jason,

Try Bill Miller. He sent me the name some time back, I don't recall seeing a photo though. Bill may have one.

Cheers
Kevin

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #3 11-09-06, 22:20

'Karla' comes up blank for me, but ... er ... 'Belle' rings a bell. I agree that Bill is probably your most likely source at this point.

Spurrat · #4 11-09-06, 22:23

Thanks Kevin, I have asked Bill but we haven't found one yet. I did get some more pictures yesterday that show a few other names. ENID, ALICE, MIN, RUBY-FLO and what looks like a TERBICKY RODA. I will post the new pics soon!

Spurrat · #5 11-09-06, 22:25

Thanks Geoff!

Hanno Spoelstra · #6 11-09-06, 22:46

This is how far I got five years ago, meanwhile many more names have been unearthed. Again, ask Bill!

H.

Bill Miller · #7 12-09-06, 00:07

Sorry Folks, I have not come across a photo of "Karla".

Jason has unearthed quite an amazing little stash of personnel photos that was among his Grandfather's estate (Tpr Karl Lemon). I am working hard to try and identify the men in the photos (Lt. Rose's troop, B Squadron).

One of the more interesting photos shows a trooper riding a (civilian) motorcycle.

Jason, could you post that photo and perhaps the more knowledgeable vehicle people could identify the type of motorcycle and also the truck in the background? This is the one with the tank named "Trebecky Roda" (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean???)

I'm still finding new stuff all the time (and new leads) some of the informal camp shots I have come across lately show troopers with cameras, so lots of "kangaroo" pictures are out there still. At Art Bell's request I intend on coming to Toronto for the reunion this year and will have a lot of new photos, documents and artifacts to show the vets. Hopefully they'll be able to properly identify some of these newly uncovered items.

Sorry I can't be of more help at this time. But don't give up hope. I have been constantly surprised by the stuff that keeps turning up!

Bill.

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #8 12-09-06, 00:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Miller
I'm still finding new stuff all the time (and new leads) some of the informal camp shots I have come across lately show troopers with cameras, so lots of "kangaroo" pictures are out there still. At Art Bell's request I intend on coming to Toronto for the reunion this year and will have a lot of new photos, documents and artifacts to show the vets. Hopefully they'll be able to properly identify some of these newly uncovered items.

It will be good to see you again, Bill!

#9 12-09-06, 01:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
'Karla' comes up blank for me, but ... er ... 'Belle' rings a bell. I agree that Bill is probably your most likely source at this point.

Hmmmmm, I don't recall if you met Kala at OL2004 Geoffery, IIRC she was there briefly and so too was her elder sister Mercedes, again IIRC.

Seems I need to get scrubbed and cleaned-up this Saturday as Kala is getting married it seems.

Sorry, diverted the thread somewhat, I'll get me coat.

R.

Spurrat · #10 12-09-06, 03:55

Here is the motorcycle picture that Bill mentioned. The credit for the safe keeping of the photos belongs to my Grandmother Belle. The reason we will all be able to see the photos is because my Uncle Gary, my Grandfather's first born and his wife Marilyn and my Mom Karla found the items, put them aside and entrusted them to me.

As the oldest Grandson I want to record his history for the next generation.

Hanno Spoelstra · #11 14-09-06, 10:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Notton
Seems I need to get scrubbed and cleaned-up this Saturday as Kala is getting married it seems.

Oh! That's great news, congratulations!

H.

Hanno Spoelstra · #12 14-09-06, 11:04

Jason, Bill, thanks for all you are doing to keep the memory of this unit and it's members alive.

On the subject of Kangaroo names, here's some information on "Marion":

"Marion" was a Ram Kangaroo APC of the 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment. It was the Kangaroo of Major Copley, who named it after his wife. There is a picture of "Marion" in Kenneth Ramsden's book The Canadian Kangaroos in World War II (ISBN 0-96996-97).

Don Dingwall dug up a file on Canadian War Trophies: Volume 10622: War Trophies, File #215C1.009 (D185). This file lists the vehicles for which units filed a request for it to be brought home as a war trophy. Ram Kangaroo, MARION, CT159891 was most certainly requested as a war trophy, but as the unit had no Canadian-based affiliation and was formed and demobbed overseas, this request was turned down.

To correct this important omission, maybe the CWM will restore their Ram Kangaroo as "Marion" one day?

Hope this is of interest,
Hanno

marco · #13 17-09-06, 21:23

Some more Kangaroo photo's taken in Meppel, Holland, April 13th 1945.
Number on the Kangaroo is CT-40146

Marco

marco · #14 17-09-06, 21:26

The second one.

marco · #15 17-09-06, 21:27

And the last one.

Number on the first Kangaroo is CT40170 and the other one is CT40716.

Marco

servicepub (RIP) · #16 17-09-06, 21:33

Great Pix! Can I use these on my Ram Tank web-site?

marco · #17 17-09-06, 21:38

Hi Clive,

Yes you can.
The copyrights will be expired by now I guess...

Marco

Hanno Spoelstra · #18 17-09-06, 21:43

Marco, excellent pics, thank for sharing with us!

As far as I can see, these are actually Gun Towers as they have towing hooks fitted to the front and rear. Clive, does this tie in with your data?

Hanno

Hanno Spoelstra · #19 17-09-06, 23:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
As far as I can see, these are actually Gun Towers as they have towing hooks fitted to the front and rear. Clive, does this tie in with your data?

I just checked, and indeed all three are listed as Gun Towers (see below).

Besides the towing hooks, the rungs welded to the hull side of CT-40146 are unique to Gun Towers. They are not a feature of Kangaroos, as often claimed.

H.

Quote:

Originally posted by marco
Number on the Kangaroo is CT-40146

CT40146; Oct 1944, shown as 17-pdr Tower, held by 21st Army Group; unknown date, shown as 17-pdr Tower, held by 6 A/Tk Regiment, RCA

Quote:

Number on the first Kangaroo is CT40170 and the other one is CT40716.

CT40170; Oct 1944, shown as 17-pdr Tower, held by 21st Army Group; unknown date, shown as 17-pdr Tower, held by 6 A/Tk Regiment, RCA

CT40716; Oct 1944, shown as a 17-pdr Tower, held by 21st Army Group

servicepub (RIP) · #20 17-09-06, 23:49

It is really nice to see the utility of the Ram Tank website. Often, Kangaroos, Towers and Armd Ammo carriers would be incorrectly cross-identified because all three featured turretless chassis. This is made even more difficult when a number of Towers were later converted to Kangs and retained their towing hooks. As I find more CT number data I will post them on the Ram site.

John McGillivray · #21 18-09-06, 00:56

Also the unit markings and the AoS indicate that they belong to the 6th A/T Regt. The following is from the Gunners of Canada Vol II p 436-437.

“The 3rd Canadian Division, on the 2nd Canadian Corps' left flank, pushed northward from its Deventer operation, its goal the Friesland town of Leeuwarden, a score of miles east of the long causeway that crossed the mouth of the Ijsselmeer. Each of Brigadier Clarke's field regiments was in support of an infantry brigade - the 14th Field being with the 9th Brigade, which was leading the advance. To help carry the Brigade's forward battalions, the 6th Anti-Tank Regiment provided 23 Rams, and the 14th Field a number of its spare vehicles. The reputedly strongly-held town of Zwolle, west of the divisional axis, was abandoned by the enemy without a fight, and on 14 April reconnaissance parties of the 14th Field were with the first troops of the 9th Infantry Brigade into Meppel. They experienced the full force of the enthusiastic welcome by the townspeople both here and in Steenwijk, which was liberated later the same day. On the 15th the Divisional reconnaissance regiment reached Leeuwarden; and next day the 9th Brigade's operations in Friesland ended, as guns of the 14th Field fired for a successful attack on the seaport of Harlingen. Afterwards a German battery commander volunteered the encouraging information that six of his nine 40-mm. guns had been knocked out by gunfire and crews forced to abandon the other three.”

Bill Miller · #22 18-09-06, 01:28

Great photos Marco, what is the original source... I am looking for photos of the 6A/T Rams...

The 74th and 103rd Batteries were Ram towed guns (33 and 56 Btys were M10 Tank Destroyers). Several times these two "Ram" batteries were pressed into service as "Kangaroos" as these pictures clearly show. most notably, in February, in the Hochwald Forest supporting the Lincoln & Welland Regiment and again in April.

From the history of the 6th Anti-Tank Regt(p.33):
"...the Rams were being utilized agin as infantry transporters. On 11 Apr these towers complete with drivers, co-drivers and Brownings, went under comd 3 Div...

For almost three weeks these vehs were employed carrying infantry about Northern Holland while the last round up of enemy in these areas was being made. No very heavy action was experienced by Regt. personnel but a great deal of driving was involved. During the period, about 450 miles were covered and the maintenance required to keep the vehs on the road waas prodigious."

This co-incides with the 1CACR (the real kangaroos) being pulled from frontline duty. Approx. the 16th of April until the 1st of May.

Here is another photo of "J2" to compliment Marco's post above. Probably taken in late October 1944 when the 103rd Bty was attached to 104 US (Timberwolf) Div.

marco · #23 18-09-06, 15:07

Hello Bill,

The photo's are from a Dutch book published shortly after the war.
It is called "De bevrijding van Meppel" (the liberation of Meppel) and was written by Jan Poortman.
He was a member from the local resistance and operated in the region of Meppel and Coevorden.
Between April 8th-15th he worked closely together with 12th Manitoba Dragoons A-Squadron which was at that time under command of Capt. Vic Stilwell and located at a farm called "Bloemberg".
Together, they traced many German positions of which most were shot up.
Both men earned the Dutch "Bronze Lion" for their achievements, the second highest Dutch military decoration.

I have never seen the photo's published elsewhere.

Best regards,

Marco

Spurrat · #24 18-09-06, 18:37

Hi Marco, thanks for adding the great pictures!

I know Bill mentioned that they were used as infantry carriers as well but do any of the photos pictured have the gun crews riding on the Ram's? If so what gun did they normally tow and how many men normally made up a gun crew?

marco · #25 18-09-06, 20:47

Hi Jason,

There were several photo's taken in my neighbourhood (that is in the eastern part of Holland) showing Kangaroos but I never found one showing a Kangaroo towing the 17 pdr +limber.
It seems that at that time (April 1945) most of the Kangaroos were used as infantry carriers.
Also I never saw photo's from 17 pdr field guns in action in my neighbourhood, all 17 pdr's known from photo's are self propelled (Firefly, Archer and M10).

I would expect a 17 pdr gun crew would be about 6 or7 men, but I'm sure someone can tell us exactly.

In the meantime I found some more Kangaroo photo's.
This one is from April 4th, taken in the city of Delden near the Twenthe canal .

Marco

marco · #26 18-09-06, 21:03

And another one taken in the same area.
The number on the first Kangaroo is CT-151773.
The second looks like CT-151897 but I'm not 100% sure, even after having used my whole inventory of optical devices.

Marco

Spurrat · #27 18-09-06, 21:08

WOW Marco, keep posting. You have great photos!

Thanks very much for sharing!!

marco · #28 18-09-06, 21:09

And the last (??) one, Steenwijk, April 12th 1945.

Marco

marco · #29 18-09-06, 21:18

Found another one: Denekamp, April 2nd 45.

Marco

servicepub (RIP) · #30 18-09-06, 21:21

Marco,
Can I get your full name to add to my acknowledgements? Thnx
www.ramtank.ca