MG mount for a M38A1 CDN2

BOBM35A2 · #1 02-04-10, 04:19

I am trying to obtain all the parts to accurately restore my 67 M38A1 CDN2.
I am presently looking for the Machine Gun swing arm mount that attaches to the right side of the jeep. I have been looking for a while. I am prepared to make one if I had the dimentions and knew what the inside of the lower arm was like. If anyone knows where I can get one or send me close ups and dimentions of one, I would appreciate it.
Thank You
Bob

maple_leaf_eh · #2 02-04-10, 17:07

I've got one that I can measure up for you. There is nothing a man with a welder and some machine tools can't reproduce. The only parts to source are the ball-detent pins, but the couple of places I looked wanted $30-$40 each, so I am using something less pricey. Do you have the base?

There seem to be two styles of mount, the one for the Observer on a Lynx and the less complicated GPMG mount. The Reserves had the latter on their M38A1s.

BOBM35A2 · #3 02-04-10, 20:50

I have no parts at all. I have aready diagramed a base and put it into a cad program at my welders shop as a last resort. It was based on the holes that were welded up on the side of the jeep and looking at many pictures. I believe that the swing arms doesn't clear the windshield, and has to be postioned over the dash from the back. At least that's what it looks like. I may or may not want to change that idea. I don't know what the inside brace looks like either. I'm also interested in what I can't see inside the vertical pipe from the base to the 90 degree angle. Any help would diffently be very appreciated.
Thank You

BCA · #4 04-04-10, 16:02

I have 2 good used swing arms (with the removable pintle). No lock pins (easy to use bolts if you can't find the correct lock pins. $175 each plus post and tax. Ship to Canada only.
....... Brian

rob love · #5 04-04-10, 17:10

I'm out of the country for a few more weeks, but if it's of any help I can scan and post some of the installation instructions when I get back. I also have the modification instructions for putting the small canvas bags onto this mount for catching the empty brass and the stipped links.

BOBM35A2 · #6 04-04-10, 23:19

That would be very helpful. Looking forward to your return.
Thank You
Bob M.

BOBM35A2 · #7 04-05-10, 01:34

Thank you to the members of this forum. I now have the upper swing arm mount for the jeep. I'll start making the lower mount that bolts onto the jeep later this week. If anyone could take just a couple of general measurements on the lower mount that they have and send it to me I would appreciate it. I think I have a very close design comparing pictures but I would like to make it as close as possible. I'm also intersested in an ammo tray for the mount. I've only seen one in pictures.
Thanks,
Bob M.

derk derin · #8 04-05-10, 07:21

Hi Bob,
I have part of the cfto for mounting the gpmg mount to the jeep tub.I also have the diagram that shows the mounting of the ammo tray.The first design had just a side plate where a strap goes through and holds the ammo box to the side.Later they modified that with bending and fabricating a proper tray that the ammo can drops in.I used to have both on my M38A1 CDN 2.I don't know if you can blow the picture up to see it more clearly?

Hope this may help you.
Derk.

BOBM35A2 · #9 04-05-10, 13:41

Derk,
Thank you very much. The diagram is very helpful. It matches the one we drew up. The picture were a little blurred when I blew them up, but never the less helpful.
Thank You.

BOBM35A2 · #10 05-05-10, 02:40

Derk,
Sand blasted the swing arm and painted it today. Compared our drawings with your prints. Very Close. Ordered some metal and will start building the mount later this week. I would be intersted in the prints of the ammo tray.
Next project is already being planned. I'll be looking for an antenna mount that will take a large antenna base. Either over the spare tire or left rear corner.
Thanks for your help.
Bob Metayer

maple_leaf_eh · #11 05-05-10, 04:01

Note the date for the GPMG mount is 1975. If you have one of these, then the radios have to be appropriate for the date. The Reg F were using RT524 radios with the AMU and 10' whip antenna by then. The Reserves were still lumbering along with C42 radios with the ATU and 8' rod antenna. These both used bases on the spare tire carrier.

BOBM35A2 · #12 05-05-10, 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Note the date for the GPMG mount is 1975. If you have one of these, then the radios have to be appropriate for the date. The Reg F were using RT524 radios with the AMU and 10' whip antenna by then. The Reserves were still lumbering along with C42 radios with the ATU and 8' rod antenna. These both used bases on the spare tire carrier.

Good Catch Terry. I had to go back to the research and find the correct dates. Dates in The BCR would have been around 79 to at least 83,when the maintanace records stopped.It then got reassigned in 86 to the 1 signal regiment.
I'm not a radio man, perhaps I'll have to start a new thread. But the radios our military used changes names as the mounted then in vehicles and added on equipment to them. I believe mine was used from the 60s into the ?s. It started off as a PRC-77. I'm not sure what it is now. I know it was a favoite in our 67 and up M151A1 Gun Jeeps in Viietnam. I took the entire unit out of my 71 M35A2 when I sold it.It was slated for my 67 M151A1 restoration, but now that project has been rescheduled after the M38A1 CDN2.
Next project for today is looking for tie rods for the M38A1 Cdn2. During Alignment yesterday, I was told the tie rod end were good and tight but the threads were gone. I have new ends in the garage, but I'm thinking Ill replace the rods too to complete the all new status.
I say if any one is retired and says thet are bored, tell them to by a military vehicle.
Bob M.

BOBM35A2 · #13 08-05-10, 18:21

Derk,
Made up the pieces for the mount. Today I'll be welding them together. The Plates have already been fitted to the jeep in their original holes. The next step on the MG mount would be the tray. Does anyone have diagrams or close up pictures of the ammo tray?
While I'm at it does anyone have close up pictures of the radio bracket and tray?
Thanks,
Bob M.

derk derin · #14 08-05-10, 19:36

Bob,
The closest picture I have of the tray for the ammo can is me actually firing the 1919 on my jeep at a Machine gun shoot in 1998.Hope this can help.

I just had to make sure I didn't shoot the wirecutter on the front bumper!
Derk.

BOBM35A2 · #15 08-05-10, 23:42

Derk,
Thank You for sending the pictures. One picture is worth a thousand words. Your three pictures answered so many questions I had not even asked or was afraid to ask.
The only question now is how to send a picture?
I have pictures of the various parts before assemby and then the fisinished product.
I finished the mount and right now it's in the garage drying after paint.
Bob

Barry Churcher · #16 08-05-10, 23:50

Nice welds.

BOBM35A2 · #17 09-05-10, 02:11

Barry,
Thanks for the good words. I'll pass them on to my welder. I can't claim those as mine.
Well as of 8:00 PM the mount is painted and installed, test driven. Just the pins to attend to. Then the ammo tray.

derk derin · #18 09-05-10, 06:28

Hi Bob,
I have posted a thread on the fabrication and installation of wirecutters for the jeep if you wanted to make one for your jeep seeing as you are capable of that kind of work.Nice job on the mount.
Derk.

rob love · #19 09-05-10, 14:05

I am not so sure the ammo tray was an official modification, but rather was a locally produced item. Normally just an ammo box was secured on the arm by a small cargo strap. There was a modification later on with a couple U bolts and some canvas bags to catch the spent brass and links.

There was also talk in this thread of the GPMG mount being on regular force vehicles. That was never the intention, they were meant to be on militia armoured recce jeeps only. Of course, with VMOs, it was possible for one to find it's way to the regular force, but that wasn't the intention of the kit. It was to be used as a trainer for armoured recce procedures like spec fire or covered withdrawals.

BOBM35A2 · #20 13-05-10, 13:36

Rob Love,
I thought I saw an ammo tray on a jeep that was identified as yours. Do you have close ups of that tray or can you furnish any info that I could use to duplicate one. Also the expended shell and link catcher.
Thanks,
Bob M.

rob love · #21 28-05-10, 04:02

The ammo tray on mine was purely there out of neccessity and was home made by me. My GPMG is converted to 8mmX63, which comes on cloth 250 round belts which would not fit in the 7.62 ammo can, so I made up the tray to accept the swedish cardboard box. As I mentioned previously, there were the odd trays around, but they were a local thing. The .308 ammo can locks into the existing arm quite nicely.

Here is a quick snapshot of the CFTO detailing the modification for the link and cartridge catching bags. The bags are found in various surplus stores (I last saw them at prefair in Montreal) and I think Brian Asbury may have had them listed at one time as well. I have a set or two, but have never got around to making these items. Quite frankly, they filled up too quickly anyway.

If there are any other details you want to see, don't hesitate to ask. I realize this one photo may leave a few questions.

BOBM35A2 · #22 01-06-10, 00:09

Rob, Brian, Craig, Terry and Derk.
Thank you for your help in my quest for equiping my jeep. As many have said before, this forum is a fantastic fountain of information that is supplied by helpful knowledgeable people. I reached my first important goal. The jeep was dressed enough and intime to be in the Memorial Day Parades. I lean myself and vehicles to the Veterans for carrying the older Vets who can't march. This year riding in jeep was Bristol's last remaining surviver of the Pearl Harbor Invasion in 1941, Maj. Ed Riccio. He thought the world of the jeep as I thought the world of him. It's was truly my honor. The jeep got many compliments. I accept them as they were extended to you as well for your help. Attached is a picture of the jeep after the parade. I look forward to finishing the project.
Again thank you.
Bob Metayer

maple_leaf_eh · #23 01-06-10, 01:00

You have a good imagination and a lot of energy to put the parts together. I could poke at a few of the little details, but yours is rolling - mine isn't. So you have one huge advantage over me!

Sulking and feeling outplayed, I would put the RT524 on the right wheel well, because the IKEE power supply runs along the body from that side to the battery box. The FN rifle is reversed, but it fits where it is. In any case, very few self-respecting recce troopers accepted an FN if an SMG was available. The SMG mount should probably be between the seats next to the handbrake, and the Ansul #5 extinguisher on the dash. But there were Jeeps with the SMG on the dash, just as well. I'm not a big fan of that numbering stencil location, but there are pictures of the numbers there too.

And in case any American patriots give you dirty looks or call the BATF, Militia in Canada is a good word. You can correctly describe your Jeep as a Militia recce (never recon) vehicle.

servicepub (RIP) · #24 01-06-10, 01:14

Nice work Bob. My only comment is that the numbers on the sill should be considerably smaller. Where did you find the SMG? Is it a plastic replica?

rob love · #25 01-06-10, 02:42

There are closed bolt sterlings available in the US these days starting at $499. Parts kits will cost more than the working gun.

BOBM35A2 · #26 01-06-10, 21:15

See, I learned something new and will use it.
I must say, please give me your opinions, I use the information. Poke fun at the details. You know the vehicle and the facts. I had to draw my own conclusions and try to figure out what went where and why based on finding 50 or so pictures on the internet for about 12 months. I'm the odd fellow out. I was a Policeman for 30 years, I can take ia little poke. I will also admit violating a couple of proceedures.
I placed the radio on the left fender because it sticks out inside the back and is protected by the driver's seat and allows more room to enter the jeep from the right side. The stencil on the dash was copied from several pictures I reviewed. No info available.
The FN is reversed. It presented more room for the passenger to get in. In the case this week that 82 year old 6 foot major had a rought enought time just getting up into the jeep. I'll switch it for the show June 12. Sterling is a real parts kit, as is, not fireable. Connecticut will not allow full or semi auto Sterlings. FN is a new put together, with some USA parts due to U.S. restrictions.
Browing is a the real deal, semi auto. You know you have to make certain sacrafices due to where you are and what you have to work with.
When I was a kid we had a saying, it was a fifty -fifty job. It looked good at fifty feet or going by at fifty miles an hour. I think the jeep being 3,000 miles from home looks pretty good. I'm not sure if I'm going to mount a fire extinguiher. Probably too much trouble getting one that's the right size or color.
No problem with a little poking, if you decide to do an american vehicle, I'm sure I could return the poke.

Alex Blair (RIP) · #27 01-06-10, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOBM35A2

See, I learned something new and will use it.
I must say, please give me your opinions, I use the information. Poke fun at the details. You know the vehicle and the facts. I had to draw my own conclusions and try to figure out what went where and why based on finding 50 or so pictures on the internet for about 12 months. I'm the odd fellow out. I was a Policeman for 30 years, I can take ia little poke. I will also admit violating a couple of proceedures.
I placed the radio on the left fender because it sticks out inside the back and is protected by the driver's seat and allows more room to enter the jeep from the right side. The stencil on the dash was copied from several pictures I reviewed. No info available.
The FN is reversed. It presented more room for the passenger to get in. In the case this week that 82 year old 6 foot major had a rought enought time just getting up into the jeep. I'll switch it for the show June 12. Sterling is a real parts kit, as is, not fireable. Connecticut will not allow full or semi auto Sterlings. FN is a new put together, with some USA parts due to U.S. restrictions.
Browing is a the real deal, semi auto. You know you have to make certain sacrafices due to where you are and what you have to work with.
When I was a kid we had a saying, it was a fifty -fifty job. It looked good at fifty feet or going by at fifty miles an hour. I think the jeep being 3,000 miles from home looks pretty good. I'm not sure if I'm going to mount a fire extinguiher. Probably too much trouble getting one that's the right size or color.
No problem with a little poking, if you decide to do an american vehicle, I'm sure I could return the poke.

Bob..
The mutual ability to poke and be poked back just means that you are one of us..the Green Rust Brothers..
Great to see you here..You should hop in the Jeep and head up to Bob's Barbecue in Hammond Ontario on the weekend of June 26-28..roughly....
You can grab Phil in New Hampshire on your way through..He knows the way and has been up before ..you will meet some of the strangest MLU characters ,but all Green Rust Brothers..
A great time will be had by all..

BOBM35A2 · #28 02-06-10, 04:19

Alex,
Thanks for the kind words. Our club has one on the best Military Vehicle Shows and Flea Markets on the East coast of the US. It will be on June 12. After that I'll be getting my second ready for college.
However, that thought does sound inviting, and I'm going to see if it is possible for next year. Check out our website www.comvec.org If any can come down, please do.
I would look forward to meeting my Canadian friends. I may start planning a trip north.
Thanks,
Bob

Barry Churcher · #29 03-06-10, 17:37

Bob, my CDN3 has the stencil on the dash just like yours. Mine also had a large yellow, radio caution sticker. You have done a marvelous job and thanks for taking a Canadian vehicle to the parades.
Cheers,
Barry

rob love · #30 03-06-10, 18:25

The CFR on the dash looks fine to me as well. I remember those long yellow radio warning decals as well. Later they were replaced with the small rectangular orange and black decals.

The one caution about the spare tire carrier type AMU bracket is they lead to early failure of the back panel on the body. Thats a lot of weight to be swinging back and forth so high up.