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  #1  
Old 24-05-03, 06:11
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is online now
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Default Royal Canadian Dragoons markings

I'm looking for confirmation of the unit sign worn on RCD vehicles while they were the armoured car regiment for the 1st Canadian Corps cira 1943-44. Unit serial '44' on the armoured green over blue is given as official. I contrast this with two wartime paintings by Canadian war artist E. J. Hughes who shows the number '47' on black (and white over blue for an attached Signal Corps vehicle) used with the 1st Corp flash. 47 on black was used by the RCD's earlier while attached to the 5th Canadian Armoured Division. Given that Hughes paintings are accurate to the number of bolts he depicts on a particular subject, was he painting what he saw? One photograph of a Fox armoured car belonging to the RCD's taken in England, that looks suspiciously like the inspiration for one of Hughes' paintings, unfortunatly has a shadow or censor smear over the unit sign.
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  #2  
Old 24-05-03, 10:07
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Default re. RCD markings

Hi Bruce,

Here goes:

1941 - 47 on black
1942-44 - 44 on green over blue
1944-45 - 41 on green over blue

try these links - I use them all the time for markings info for my models:

http://www.rcaca.org/

http://www3.sympatico.ca/chr.johnson/
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Last edited by DaveCox; 24-05-03 at 11:17.
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  #3  
Old 24-05-03, 16:40
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is online now
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Default I know but...

That's my problem. By all accounts, the RCD's should have used the signs you just quoted. Yet Hughes' otherwise super-detailed paintings twice show the "47" device used alongside the 1st Corps sign. Options are a) he was confused and perhaps using outdated sketches for the basis of his work, b) security concerns made him deliberately obscure the markings or c) he painted what he saw and this begs the question wha..the..f???

I'm looking to pattern my Fox markings off one of these paintings so really would like to know.
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  #4  
Old 24-05-03, 20:31
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Default

I would say that he probably painted what he saw - I'll probably be shot down for saying so but not all records are complete, not all colour regulations where adhered to, and some units moved around depending on the immediate needs of the time. Go for it.
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  #5  
Old 25-05-03, 19:14
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is online now
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Default ...and this one...

Again the '47' with the 1st Corp sign, correctly on Signal Corps blue/white as it should be for an attached sigs vehicle. He'd be one clever artist to know such detail if it wasn't what he saw.
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  #6  
Old 09-11-04, 17:05
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Re: Royal Canadian Dragoons markings

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Parker
Canadian war artist E. J. Hughes
Here's another one of his paintings - I like them a lot!
Bruce, I assume you got those pictures from the Canadian War Museum site also?

Cheers,
Hanno


Armoured Car
Painted in 1946 by E. J. Hughes (1913)
An armoured car of the Royal Canadian Dragoons preparing for firing practice at a machine gun range in Sussex, England
Source: http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/canvas/2/cwe147e.html
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  #7  
Old 10-11-04, 00:28
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is online now
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Default Thanks Hanno!!

I hadn't seen that one before. Again great detail. See the 50 and 30 cal. ammunition in white cloth belts. Again my question about the "47" unit sign. The RCD's, while attached to the 1st Canadian Corps should have worn a "44" on a green over blue square. The "47" was the sign for the RCD's in 1941 when they were part of the 5th Armoured Division. As I see it, if Hughes pictures are accurate, then the old 5th Div. "47" carried on for some time after the move to the 1st Corps, or perhaps he knew better and did this to "confuse the enemy"?

He's also consistent with the light blue squadron markings. Technically these should be white. Here is a photo of an RCD Fox that clearly shows the 1st Corp formation flash and a squadron marking on the turret. No "44" or "47" though. I rather fancy the black or dark green micky mouse cam pattern extends up to cover most of the turret side.
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  #8  
Old 10-11-04, 06:17
Gunner Gunner is offline
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Default Fox markings

Hi Bruce:

Pure speculation here... is it possible the sigs markings are accurate in that the HQ sigs sqn would likely have had a recce veh or two for scouting step-up HQ locations.

My personal experience with armoured car markings was in the SSF with 2 RCHA in the early '80's:

We were assigned to provide FOO's for the RCR who had been mechanised with Grizzleys. We were issued a number of them and my driver was pretty quick in painting over the old infantry markings and putting on artillery tac and call signs. I was the FOO and TC of A tp, D Bty. Thus, my jeep was "11" and the Griz was "11A".

We didn't get the MGs with them (wouldn't want them anyway as they took up too much room in the turret. Instead we used the turret backwards (there was a nice deep shelf at the back for my maps and shooting kit... we had black painted broom sticks stuck on to make it look any other Griz in the pack. To make us not stand out, many of the other Griz were fitted with spare antennae not hooked to any radios... that way I wasn't the only one with four antennae! Can you spell sniper magnet? ;}

All this to say that the kit often gets moved around to meet the tactical needs of the Commander as opposed to pleasing some staff wallah and his org charts.

On the issue of censoring war art: Several years ago I had the priviledge of spending many days in the art vaults and some of the paintings actually had censor seals on them. It was explained to me that if the censors felt that the art was too accurate and might give away some bit of data, then the paintings were 'sealed' and not released until the data was stale. A lot better than blotting out a bit of a master piece! The best example I've seen was a painting of a RCAF briefing room; an artillery officer is briefing the pilots... likely on airspace coordination measures which is a bird gunner responsibility. In the background is a map of the Normandy beaches. Because the map in the painting contained a clue that the true intentions of the allied assault was not Pas de Calais, the painting itself was locked up. It still bears the Top Secret stamps on the back and has evidence of being folded and sealed.

Cheers! Mike
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  #9  
Old 10-11-04, 17:06
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Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Post Re: RCD and "47" serial

Hi Bruce;

The "47", along with the Cdn I Corps formation sign would be correct. Upon the reorganization of the 5th Cdn Armd Div (beginning in Jan 1943), the RCD became "Corps Troops", but at that point, there was no establishment for a "Corps Armoured Car Regiment", so the RCD retained their "47" serial, until such time as the new establishment for a "Corps Armoured Car Regiment", was issued, which was sometime before the summer of 1943, just haven't found the exact date yet. (Note: also at the same time of the reorganization of 5th Cdn Armd Div, the new serials for the AoS markings of the new Armoured Division establishment would have come into effect, making the "47" serial of the RCD, more or less, surplus to requirements)

Hope this helps.

Cheers
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  #10  
Old 11-11-04, 00:23
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is online now
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Default Thanks Mark!

You're a saint! That clears up a question I've stewed about for quite a while. Not only that, but my respect for, and reliance on, the detail in Hughes paintings remains intact. You wouldn't want to comment on the colours, particularly the pale blue squadron markings and the three-tone (khaki/grey/brown) on the close-up street scene? I'm also curious why no vehicle names are present. I can't recall seeing names on Fox in England but they appear on 4PLDG Otters and Fox in Sicily.
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  #11  
Old 11-11-04, 02:38
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Default

Gunner, you've left yourself open on this one. Broomsticks? It is almost too easy. Would've made an easy mark for the media, all things considered...
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  #12  
Old 11-11-04, 02:44
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Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by chris vickery
Gunner, you've left yourself open on this one. Broomsticks? It is almost too easy. Would've made an easy mark for the media, all things considered...
Karmen would be jealous... she only has one, but mind you, she flies on hers...
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  #13  
Old 12-11-04, 22:52
Gunner Gunner is offline
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Default Broomsticks

Hi Guys:

FOO vehicles have a long history of having fake armament... when you command the fire of six howitzers and can control the fire of a Corps' worth of artillery and close air support; who needs to play with a 'girlie gun'?!

Cheers! Mike
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  #14  
Old 13-11-04, 00:29
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Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Post Re: Broomsticks

Quote:
Originally posted by Gunner
FOO vehicles have a long history of having fake armament... when you command the fire of six howitzers and can control the fire of a Corps' worth of artillery and close air support; who needs to play with a 'girlie gun'?!
The FOO, in the days before the advent of the armoured protection of an AVGP turret and it's 'girlie gun'.............
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  #15  
Old 19-11-04, 01:01
Gunner Gunner is offline
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Default FOO vehicle!

Yeehaa!

A bit breezie but nice for getting an all over tan!

I spent a year in the Sahara wearing a "baby blue don't shoot me beanie" and I can see where that would actually be a useful adaptation as long as you had air superiority!

Being able to hide in the shaded side of a wadi and use the ladder to get some height would work well in that environment.

In the Sahara our "FOO" vehs were originally open topped, no wind screen, diesel engined land rovers (actually Spanish made clones) and we wore UN blue jelabas to protect our heads and faces... very SAS and Rat Patrol or was that Popsky's Private Army?!

We quickly upgraded to enclosed Nissan Patrols painted in the traditional UN white. They were air conditioned not for our comfort but to ensure that the radio and GPS kept working! Toughest little trucks I ever lived out of... and we beat the living crap out of them doing 400 and 600 km patrols every week.

Cheers! Mike
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  #16  
Old 19-11-04, 02:20
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Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Talking Re: FOO vehicle!

Quote:
Originally posted by Gunner
wearing a "baby blue don't shoot me beanie"
...I can relate to that.... .... been there, done that.....a couple of times......

Cheers
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